The Most Important Management Book of All-Time | Seeking Wisdom Podcast

The Most Important Management Book of All-Time | Seeking Wisdom Podcast


– [Tech Guy] Now, whenever you’re ready. – Is G2 discombobulated? – (laughs) I think we’ve flustered him. – We got him flustered. That mustache he’s wearing. – All right, send us in here. – And we’re back. (upbeat hip hop music) We’re back for an episode
with the old Unc’. – Yes.
– The young nephew. – Yes.
– And Gonzalo who’s wearing a mustache. – Yep. – What are you talking about today? – So we’re talking about, this is one of my classic tricks
which is you send me a book and then a couple weeks after I say we’re gonna talk about this book on the podcast.
– Great. – This book, and your Apple watch, this book, we’re talking about a classic. A classic that is taking too long. Look at that Apple watch. I talked about false beliefs today and I used Apple watch as an example. which is right now false beliefs – Okay, all right.
– are holding me back from buying Apple watch. – Oh, you gotta get it. – But that’s for a separate–
– Look at that. – That’s just some secret–
– Look at that. You gotta do it. – Young lion on the cover.
– Young lion on the photos. – Wow. 3:43 p.m. which means we gotta rock. So we’re gonna talk about
one of the all time classic, classic books today, which is High Output Management. – Why didn’t you tell me that before? – By Andy Grove. Because I think spontaneous
DC is my favorite DC. – Ah, if you would have told me I would’ve done jumping jacks for this.
– Tell me, tell me why this is such a classic book to you. I’ve got the notes so. – I brought it out. – You brought it out recently? – Yes, so Andy Grove,
legendary CEO of Intel – Intel. – Rest in peace, RIP Andy Grove. – Yes. – And if you read a lot of the books that we’ve talked about in the past, like Hard Thing About Hard Things from the homie, Ben Horowitz. If you read some of the early tales of The Coach Of Silicon Valley, if you read some of the stuff that we’ve talked about in the past, then you’ll know that a lot of the stories that they talk about come
from the management secrets of Andy Grove.
– Andy Grove. – Right, if you think about John Doerr and his book on
– OKRs. – OKRs, right, all of these things, they all make reference to one man and that one man is Andy Grove. – [Dave] Yeah. – So I’ve read this book a
bunch of times in the past and, but it was a lot of this stuff that you could learn from this book in the early stages of Drift
were not applicable yet, but as we always say, you have to revisit books. And I was in the library, AKA,
the library at home there. – Okay. – Uh-huh, and I was lookin’ through my perusing through my stacks, and I came upon this book and
I was like, wait a second. Now is the time. Now is the time in Drift’s history where we’re at the right size where we can take
actually lessons from this and implement them. – ‘Cause I think we first
brought it at Drift. It was like 2015. There weren’t a lot of teams. There weren’t a lot of managers. There were basically no managers. – No managers.
– The only concept you could take from it was
like how to run a one-on-one. – Exactly.
– But that’s a blog post. – Which is an important one.
– It’s an important one. We’ll talk about that. – Yep. – But yeah, you texted
me a couple weeks ago and said read, re-read this one. I said, Oh, I read this one. You said, Oh no, no, re-read it now. – It’s time to re-read it. – Because it’s time and I think man, that’s why I wanna do this podcast is because I think so much
of what we talk about is it’s pairing your learning
with a moment in time. And so we talked on the last episode about like seeking out what
you want to go learn about. And so for this one, if you’re at a phase where you’re at a company
or becoming a manager, your company’s growing and scaling, this is where I go seek out this book. – Totally.
– High Output Management. – And if you work in a large company, if you’re working with, like
you said, teams and managing, this is the book that you wanna read, High Output Management. So many lessons in this book. – So I’m gonna give you
a couple of highlights, and like we usually do on these book reviews.
– Softballs? – Softball you, right? One of the main lessons from Andy Grove, and this is something
I learn from you a lot, which is, be conscious
of how everything you do reflects on the people that work for you. That means everything. – You can’t see me now
unless you’re watching us on the YouTube.
– Which you should be. – By the way, Gonzalo needs some subs so watch us there.
– Yeah. – I’m leaning back in
the chair, soaking it in. All right, this is an important one that I always harp on which is that everything counts. Everything counts.
– Everything. – Right, every move you make, the way you carry yourself, every piece of communication, the way that you organize the studio, all of these things, the way
you organize your office, the way you organize your day,
all of these things count. And they say something
about you to your team and these are the subtle
clues that people pick up on and they will follow you. – I think that this is one I had to learn. For example, just to
make it more personal, which is like, okay, we had
different conversations. I had different conversations with you throughout my progression
over the last couple of years, which was like, okay,
you wanna be director, here’s what this means now. Oh, then you’d say stuff like, Oh you’re a director now, that means you can’t do this, right? Then the next shift was like, oh you’re a VP now, that means this. And I was like, why the hell
does he always say that? And then when you read
this, this is exactly it. Be conscious of how everything you do reflects on the people that work for you. If you want to show the
other people on your team what management and leadership looks like, you have to be able to
model that yourself. – 100%. – And that doesn’t just
happen at 2:00 p.m. when we’re in a meeting, but that’s 8:15 if I see
you out on the sidewalk, that’s, you know seven
at night out at a bar, or whatever, right?
– Yes. – That stuff has to go through all levels, which is if somebody only sees you from nine to five as
a professional person, but then you have after work stuff, President’s Club, all this
other nonsense, right? – Yeah, getting wild. – That doesn’t, the reflection there, you always say this to me,
which is perception is reality. – Yes, yes. And played in the position that you want. So if you wanna be in a new role, or if you’ve taken on a new
role or level of responsibility as the great Jay-Z, would say, the Streets Are Watching. – [Dave] The Streets Are Watching. – Okay, and what that
means is that your team and the people around are watching you for cues of how they’re
supposed to act now. And so how they’re supposed
to carry themselves. And they are doing something
that we’ve always talked about, which is they’re looking to you because they wanna model
the stuff that you’re doing and reproduce it, so if
you’re modeling bad behavior, that’s what they’re gonna model because they’re gonna
think bad behavior equals getting me in the same role. – 100%, and in the same
vein of that he also said, “A manager’s output equals
the output of his organization “plus the output of the
neighboring organizations “under his influence.” – Mm-hmm. (chuckling) – Okay.
– See? It all has been written. – Explain that.
– It’s been written. – Explain that. – This is the Bible. – Explain that. – What this means is that, and this is why I care about so much about all the
details across the team. It’s not only with single teams and how they carry themselves that sets the tone for the group or the company or the greater team, but it’s all those other
teams and role models, right? Peer groups, we call them peer groups. That you’re surrounding yourself that actually model behavior as well, so even if you have a great running team, and you’re modeling good behavior, if you associate yourself, or if your company lets other peer groups model bad behavior, then your team is going to average down to those people around you. – I think you also have to be, you say this a lot, which is like, the secret to getting promoted is to not just do a 100% of your job. – No. – A 100% doesn’t get you promoted. – No, a 100% is your job. – A 100% is your job. This to me means: you want to be great? You have to show you can
influence other teams, right? Because if you’re this
great marketing leader, but all you can do is influence
the people in marketing, how far are you going to make it? You gotta influence
sales, customer success, product, all those people. – A 100%. And one thing, I’m gonna
give you a little bonus, bonus for all you listeners out there. – Okay. – Don’t forget to leave a six star rating after you hear this bonus. The simplest way that you
can go about identifying, which builds on this principle, you’re the future leaders
in your organization. Get your pens out. Get ready.
– Yes. – Here’s how.
– Okay. – Look, observe your
company and observe the team and look towards the people and the desks that people
naturally congregate around. That is your next wave of leaders. So if you have people on your
team, or yet not leaders, but people go to them all
the time to get information and hang around their
desks asking questions– – [Dave] That’s a next level one, yeah. – That’s next level Judo. – [Dave] That’s like the water test. That’s real good. – That’s a six star
rating worthy right there. If they naturally go over there, that is your secret tell that that person probably is exhibiting leadership ability without having the role yet, so you might wanna double
down on those people within your team. Those are your natural
born leaders, right? – How’s that?
– Six star rating’s over. – The secret tell to finding
your next great manager. – Look at this, look
at this, that’s right. You give them all the words. – Come on, the secret to,
that’s gonna be separate. That’s pretty damn good. – Sometimes I give too much. – Ultimately, you do which, it’s okay.
– Sometimes, sometimes. – It’s, you know, give,
give, give, give, give. – [David] Give. – Then eventually they ask. Maybe, they ask. They have the flip. I don’t wanna give all the tips because we want you to go read this book, but there’s a couple, which is like… Saying yes means saying
no to something else. Default to no.
– Yes. – And one of the decision making exercises that I’ve learned and observed
from working with you DC, is you always do this thing where you lay out before
you make a decision. You lay out the guard rails and say I don’t know what the decision is, but let’s lay out the guard rails. Okay, we’re doing HYPERGROWTH. We want it to feel like this. We want it to be this many people minimum. We want it to be this. Then from there, we
can start to figure out how to make the decision. Or you’ve also done, I’ve see you and Aleas do this, is like, what are the things we are saying no to? – Yes, most important. And those are–
– Write them out. And that’s invert. – Invert, and that’s one
of the hardest things because we all, especially
myself and Aleas, love saying yes to everything, but we have to start by saying no. That’s why we believe so much
in the book The One Thing, and why we give it out to every person who starts at Drift because you have to figure out
what are the real big rocks and what’s the inverse of that, which are what are the things that you’re saying no to today in order to focus your time on the things that are actually gonna
move the needle forward for your business, for
your life, for your love. – [Dave] I’ve got three more things. – Look at that.
– I can’t skip any of them because they’re all good. No interview, Andy Grove, this is 1985. Before all this stuff
– Real G. – popped up with the Google interview and all this other stuff. No interview gimmicks. And you believe in this too. There are no interview gimmicks. Be straight forward. Gimmicks could leave the wrong impression. – Totally. – So his whole interview
process was no quiz. No trying to figure out the
size of a manhole cover. – Yeah, none of that Microsoft stuff. – I’d never get a job anywhere. – Yeah, yeah. (chuckling) – No interview gimmicks. – Yeah, no interview gimmicks. None of the old Microsoft techniques of the round hole cover
and all this stuff. And I used to be part
of teams and companies where I would observe
people using those things, but those things only
screen for one thing: people who like to solve puzzles. (Dave laughs) If you wanna use our
puzzles in your interview, then you’re gonna get a lot of people who like solving puzzles.
– That’s so true. – The problem with getting a lot of people who wanna solve puzzles,
and I’ve lived through this, is life is not a puzzle. – Yeah.
– It’s not a game, right? Like most of coming in
and doing and exceeding and doing the work. As Bill Walsh would say, it’s hard work. You know, a very little
amount of your time is spent on pure intellectual curiosity and you know solving puzzles and doing all of this kind of stuff. Very little of your work is that. So much of it is just
moving the ball forward and if all you care about is
solving interesting problems, it’s gonna be hard work
for you any place you go. – Do the work. Second to last thing I
wanna talk about is he said, hiring is luck. So therefore the interview
process needs to be thorough. This is why we care so much about making the interview
process scientific. You talk about this a lot. Because hiring is hard. The odds of people is gonna
be stacked against you. – Stacked. – So that’s why you need
to measure and track and be scientific in the hiring process. – Yeah, and staying within, creating those guard rails
for your hiring process, staying within those, and repeating, being repeatable in the interview process. It’s also luck so you’re gonna have to
go into it understanding that there’s gonna be a
high failure rate, right? You can try mini, or at
least a failure rate. And that you’re never gonna be perfect, and I think that some people try to get paralyzed in the interview process because they want perfection and they want never to be wrong, but as Andy Groves
said, you will be wrong. You will have issues there. What you wanna do is approach
in a scientific approach, have some guard rails. When you do have failures,
learn from those failures. That’s the hardest part. And if you can learn from those failures, optimize the process going forward, you’ll get better little by little, but it’s gonna be an incremental
approach to getting there, versus a perfect solution. – Last one, then we’re wrap. Management should adjust
based on talent and knowledge. Low, these are my rough notes
so God knows what this means. Low: more hands on and very specific. High: hands off, act
as a resource to help. – Yep, you know what this is?
– What? – This is the most famous
part about this book. What’s it called again? Is it TRM or TLM? This is like task level maturity, I think is what he calls it. It’s either task level maturity, yes, it’s task level maturity. This is the most famous
thing from this book, right? And we’ve talked about this. He coined this in ’85, right? Because he’s a genius. But we’ve talked about this in the past and said, and used
examples like Colin Powell. We’ve used other people. With this example– – [Dave] Bill Walsh, standard performance. – Yeah, and what he has with the TLM, the task level maturity thing, is to say that every person who comes in, takes a role and is doing some task, depending on the maturity
that they have in that task, maturity that they have
within that domain, within that task, is gonna determine how much in the weeds you’re gonna have to be with that person. And the more maturity
that they get over time with a specific task, the more you can pull away
and give them more autonomy and control over that task. And so Colin Powell would say that, in his book he talked about, one of his books he talked about how he would train new chiefs of staff and say, “Hey, this is my approach.” When you come on, I’m
gonna be in the weeds, I’m gonna be, you know, breathing down your
neck for every decision. And as you gain experience, I’m gonna slowly pull away until at one point you’re gonna notice that I’m not around anymore and that you’re making all the decisions. And that’s the TLM, task level maturity. He had an approach to doing that, not only for chiefs of staff, but for every role within the company and teaching that inside. – It also gives context and makes the role more like an apprenticeship, which is like, if you’re not there yet, not a knock, but I’m
gonna be there with you until you get there.
– Yeah. – Or as you grow and you
hire more specialized people. You’re a CEO. You’re not going to know more about sales than somebody who runs sales.
– No. – But that’s gonna be different, right? Then you’re hands on with somebody in the weeds in the early days. – Yeah, and the good
thing about being the CEO is that I don’t know more
about anything than anybody. – Right, but you have to.
(David laughs) But you have to be able to say, well, I’m a resource. How can I help? What are the potholes in your
area and how do I solve them? – Absolutely, absolutely. – That’s it.
– We have a huge shortage of six star ratings. – It’s like people forgot.
– Yeah. – It’s like a button is not working. – Maybe the button– – We should check, is there a bug? Did somebody file a bug? – Someone file a bug on Apple.
– Please. – Maybe Apple’s working against us. – Please.
– Or something. But we need six star ratings. Gonzalo has a little mustache,
a big mustache I should say (Dave cackling)
for November, right? – A big mustache.
– A big mustache. He looks like my dad. (Dave laughing) And he’s sad though. Even though he has a lovely mustache, he’s very sad because he does
not have six star ratings to look at all day long. He does not have any G2 shout outs. He’s a young man.
– Yeah. – He needs a little love. – [Dave] Yeah. – He needs more love than the two of us. So give him a little love. Six star ratings only
and subscribe on YouTube. Hit us up on the IG. That’s what the kids call the Instagram. – Come.
– Okay. – Come to the IG.
– Come to the IG. – We’ll give away some books.
– We’ve got lots of stories. We give away books. Follow us on Twitter. Holler at us. Much love. – See ya. (upbeat hip hop music)

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