The Iterative Marketing Podcast Ep. 48: How To Shift Your Organization To Persona-Centric

The Iterative Marketing Podcast Ep. 48: How To Shift Your Organization To Persona-Centric


Hello Iterative Marketers! Welcome to the
Iterative Marketing Podcast where each week we give
marketers and entrepreneurs actionable ideas, techniques,
and examples to improve your marketing results. If you want notes and links to
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each week at iterativemarketing.net. There you’ll also find
the Iterative Marketing blog and our community LinkedIn group where you can share ideas
and ask questions of your fellow Iterative Marketers. Now let’s dive into the show. Hello everyone and welcome to
the Iterative Marketing podcast. I am your host Steve Robinson and with me as always is the organized
but not too organized, Elizabeth Earin. How are you doing, Elizabeth? I am well, Steve.
How are you? I am doing pretty well, pretty well. We’re gearing up for summer here. Any big plans? Well, we’re trying to figure out we plan to take a
vacation this summer and we’re trying to decide
between airplane or road trip which is the lesser of two evils
with three under the age of six. Well, I think it depends
on your family. I know some families
are very good at flying and some families are
very good at road trips. What’s your guys’ track record been? I think it’s kinder to the rest
of the people on the airplane for us to staying the car. See, we love road trips. So, we look for every
opportunity to go on road trips. Our son is, he’s got it down he’s great at being in the car and looking out the window
and finding trees and animals and so we look for every
opportunity for a road trip. Excellent. Yeah, I think in general we’re
pretty good with road trips but I don’t know now that we’ve got an additional
member of the family this year it’s going to be, could be a whole new game. Well, I can’t wait to
hear how it goes. Will keep you informed. What are we actually
talking about today? So, today we’re talking about
how to shift your organization from a big idea or product
and service marketing to persona-centric marketing. We’ll talk about why it’s
necessary to make this move and we’ll also talk about
a lot of the friction or issues or challenges
that people encounter when they try to make this shift because it’s not necessarily an easy
transition for a lot of organizations. I think the reason we really wanted
to focus on this for this episode is that when we’re working
with clients and prospects to implement personas
and customer journeys there’s always some sort
of resistance that we hit and we and our clients have
found a number of tactics that we’ve been able to use
to overcome this friction to the benefit of the organization. Yeah. So, we thought it would make sense to share some of those
tactics with you today. So, if you’re in a position
where you are trying to move what feels like a mountain that you’ve got some ways
to turn it into a molehill, right? Exactly but I think before we dive
into sort of talking about how to overcome some
of those obstacles I think we need to start at maybe
defining what we’re talking about when we say persona-centric. Yeah. When we say persona-centric we’re talking about focusing
on meeting the needs of the prospect or the customer at a personalized level based on things that you
would find in a persona their demographics,
their psychographics as well as where they are
in their customer journey. So, it’s helping to make
sure that you’re doing the right thing for the
right person at the right time. There’s a lot of benefits
to doing this. First and foremost you have
more clarity or more focus in the production of your
content and creative because you know exactly
who you’re talking to you know exactly
what interests them what they’re looking for the information they’re seeking out and you know what information
they’re seeking out along each step of
their buyer’s journey. The other benefits are more tangible because you’re going
to see better outcomes you’re going to see higher
conversion rates or close rates because the content is personalized
to that customer or prospect, right? for who they are
and where they are. And that leads to something
else that we start to see and that’s a higher
customer attention due to those personalized materials
that we are able to deliver because when we can
speak to our audience in a way that shows
that we know them they feel like they belong they feel like we understand them because we do and it makes them
want to stick around. Then finally if you go through the
process of segmenting your audience and putting them into
particularly along persona lines then the data that you get
back out is also segmented. So, if your actions are segmented
your data that you get back is segmented which gives you an opportunity
to learn things at a persona level where you’ll find that they’re
often a little bit more clear because different personas
react differently to different stimuli. Exactly. So, what is sort of the problem
that that we’re facing? Why do organizations have such a
hard time implementing personas and customer journeys and the work that’s needed for
persona-centric marketing? Well, there’s lots of
different reasons and I think what would
be most effective is if we actually just loop through each of those individual reasons
those challenges one at a time and then talk about the tactics that we
found to support each one individually. The first one’s kind of obvious it’s not having someone
to really take the reigns and be that change agent
or that champion within the organization
to make this happen. I think that’s a great point, Steve. When you look at it when you’re looking to make that
shift to a persona-centric mindset that that’s not just one
department that gets impacted that’s the entire organization
that has to take control of that and has to really help to push
that through and supportive and so a lot of times it falls
into that “it’s not my job” because it does overlap those
unseen organizational lines. Yeah and it can feel intimidating because along those same lines if
it’s going to impact other departments then it may seem like it’s too large
for your role within marketing and this is moving mountains here and my job is – my lanes are within the
marketing department. I think that leads to
if you do try to step up and you do try to take control of
this process or lead this process it can feel like even though you’ve
gone through all this effort within your own department someone else in the organization is
going to come in and sort of sabotage what it is the work that you’ve done. Yeah, I mean we’ve all had that
happen to our projects, right? Hmm-hmm! So, what are some
of the solutions to this? How have our clients overcome this? They’ve just done it and I know
that sounds kind of a little like – Nike-ish.
– Yeah not Nike-ish that too but they’ve taken
that leap of faith they’ve taken that extra step and they’ve become
the change agent and they’ve done so in
a variety of different ways but I think the first hurdle
they kind of get over is that they realize that in the worst case even if you start to implement this and it doesn’t go beyond
your department at least you’ve implemented it
within your own department and you can apply personas
and customer journeys within the work that you’re doing and even if it ends there you’re still going to realize some
really phenomenal benefits and not only that but you have
a really great story to tell and hopefully as you tell that story and the company finds out about what
it is you’ve been able to accomplish they think “hmm, this is interesting,
this is something I want to look into” and you can find someone
else within the organization that can help you
spearhead that project. And it might be that
maybe you even only get to apply personas
within your own work your own domain your own little slice of
the marketing department and that’s okay too. It’s building up that
expertise on your end so you have that to carry with
you into your career forward and you get to get the utility
of it while you’re there. We’ll also talk about some
things to make that hurdle of getting it outside of your
own domain less of a challenge we’ll talk a lot about those tactics as we work our way through
the other impediments that come up throughout this episode. That said, if you’re not a member
of the senior leadership team one of the best things that you
can do to help make this happen is make sure that somebody who is in a
higher leadership role is your advocate is your champion for
enacting this change ideally above the marketing department if not the CMO or VP of Marketing or whoever’s at the
head of the table there. And if you’re trying to convince
someone at the head of the table you’re not alone,
you’ve got other people other great industry voices that
believe that this is a good idea that have the proof
that this is a good idea. What are some of your
favorite thought leaders? If I had to go to a
senior leader and say hey, this is not my crackpot idea we’ve got serious heavy hitters
in the industry who are saying this anybody from Forrester you’ve got Brian Solis
who came out of there on the marketing side
you’ve got Joseph Jaffe and more corporate customer
experience type areas you’ve got people like
Kerry Bodine, Chip Bell you’ve got authors of books
about persona-centric thinking like Adele Revella There’s lots of thought
leaders you can go to to go and pull case studies
and validation that this is not your
little pet project this is the direction of the world. We’re not just looking
to thought leaders another way that we can really help
to become the change agent is to look to build
a network of people in either our line of business
or other line of businesses in similar roles that have the same
marketing mentality that you do and working with them keeping them informed
of what you’re doing asking them for help and input sharing the results,
sharing your momentum this helps to sort of build
up the case studies for why this is the right
decision for your organization and these people
become your advocates and they become a great
network for you to rely on when you hit one of those
little road bumps of I’m not sure which way to go you already have this
great group of people who are using this in
their lives as well. The key is to start small focus on your area of work build up some influence throughout
the organization where you need it where you need to get input
in order to make this successful and keep the rest of the
organization informed as you go because that’s going to demonstrate
momentum within the company and it will help others
come along for the ride. What’s our next big issue? Yeah. So, the next one kind of it ties in something I think that hits that all of us get run into occasionally
with some project or another and that’s either there’s
no motivation to get this going or there’s no sense of
urgency to get it going. Yeah. You see this at two levels one if senior leadership
doesn’t see a need for this either within marketing
or outside of marketing then they’re not going to enact
any change themselves in how they’re communicating or how they’re interacting with
the rest of the department and that’s going to cause
some serious impediments. So, you want to try and create
that sense of motivation that urgency within
senior leadership the same thing is true with
the rest of the organization particularly those other touch points
that are going to become key as you try to work within
a persona-centric world and those come primarily in sales but also in customer service
or any other customer facing role those are the people that
have the insights you need in order to be able to really nail
your persona discovery process as well as those are the people
that are going to contribute to creating that ideal customer
journey moving forward and making sure that
marketing isn’t sitting in a silo within that customer journey. Now if this is the scenario this is the obstacle
that’s holding you back there’s sort of two solutions
to how you can approach this. The first is to paint two pictures what’s working or what’s
happening now sort of the broken versus the utopian future
what it could be and what the potential
is in the future. Yeah. That broken now picture serves to
highlight some of the key elements the customer journey that would really benefit to
a shift to persona-centricity. So, these are the instances where it’s either creating
a poor customer experience because they’re getting something
that’s totally not applicable to them or whether there’s huge opportunities
to improve conversion and click through rate whatever it might be
your positive outcomes because you’re showing
the same stuff to everyone. The utopian future that the
benefit is just exactly that how can you quantify those changes how can you say if we
were to do this better if we were to actually
improve the outcomes here what would that look like
as far as revenue goes and what does that look like
across the organization too you can break this out of
the marketing department if you need to get
advocates there as well. So, what does it look like
for customer retention? What does this look like for improving
close rates or positive outcomes there and what does even
a 3% or 5% bump in either of those two metrics mean
to the organization as far as money? And you’ll suddenly see, whoa! This could become a very
profitable endeavor. Exactly. I think that if that doesn’t help
you overcome this obstacle or even along that way the other thing you really want to
make sure that you’re doing is demonstrating a momentum and one of the ways
that you do that is make sure that the work that
you are doing is highly visible. You want to make sure
that appropriate people are it’s being shared with them that they know what’s going on that they understand the
results you’re getting that they see where you’ve
actually been able to show with hard metrics where
you’ve seen improvements. People can’t argue with the data. So, if you’re sharing
this with them even if they’re not onboard
in the beginning they’re eventually going
to come around. Yeah and storytelling can
be really helpful there. So, start out with what was
the challenge or problem how did we use persona-centric
thinking to address this and what was
the positive outcome. I think it’s a great time for
us to take a quick break and go help some people some real people
not some personas. So, let’s go do that. Before we continue I’d
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are important to you. And we are back. So, before the break we introduced
what a persona-centric mindset was why we’re talking about it today and why we’re sharing these tips and we also addressed
two of those key blockages that can get in your way as you’re trying to implement
persona-centric thinking within marketing or beyond and the two that we talked about
we’re not having a change agent the person to really
take charge and lead this or not having champions within the
organization to clear that path forward and we also talked about
a lack of urgency or need and that can really help as far as that
champions or just other stakeholders. Let’s talk about some
other issues here and the one that I think we run
into more often than not is the idea of a siloed organization. So, do you want to talk
a little bit about how that can impact
persona-centric thinking? Yeah definitely and I think it’s important to note that
this can happen in two different ways it can either happen because you
have different lines of business that are siloed from each other or you can have different
parts of the customer journey that can be siloed from each other. Marketing and sales when
there’s a clear distinct line and not open communication
between the two is a really great example
of when that happens. Once they become a customer and they get handed off
to the customer care team and sales drops out of the picture that’s another great example of where
you have that break in continuity and so these two different types
of scenarios create these silos that contribute to this problem. Yeah and ultimately
at the end of the day this causes two problems you have the problem that nobody can own the definition
of who the customer is because does sales own that,
does marketing own that does customer service own that does product design own that? Who owns this definition
of who the customer is and the second is that how do you get the moving parts
of that customer journey in sync so that you can make sure that
from a marketing perspective you actually have an awareness of
where people are in that customer journey and what you need to foster
the best experience possible from a marketing standpoint
as they move through. It’s really hard to do that
if everybody is stuck with their blinders on
in their little fiefdom. That happens more often
than I can say I want to say almost every situation. Even those organizations
that are totally on board this still comes up as an
obstacle that we encounter because when you do start talking
about who owns the process we are all passionate
about what we do and we don’t want someone to come
in and tell us how to run our department or run our business and so it’s finding that common ground
and personas and customer journeys can really help with
finding that common ground but you have to get
everyone on board and start doing the legwork
before that can happen. And the key here to overcome this
is to focus on that communication you want to – As you begin this project you want to make other groups
within your organisation aware of the work that you’re doing and be open and invite them to
participate early and often, right? If they decline at first bring them back
in later or invite them back in later. As long as the door is open
for them to participate they can’t come back later and say
that this was done in a vacuum and I think that’s part
of the key there. Hmm-hmm! Flipside of that is don’t get
mired down in governance either. So, in some organizations when you start to invite people
cross functionally into a project that can open up a whole
bunch of governance steps and now you have to create a task force
and do this that and the other see what you can do to
avoid falling into that early because it can slow
things down immeasurably and almost sometimes cause
the whole thing to just stop. And then once that
groundwork is laid you want to create a cross-functional
group that can meet to discuss this to keep this going to keep the momentum
that you started going whether it’s a task force
or a center of excellence you’re really looking for
a group that can meet that’s represented by each of the
departments that are involved or each of the business
units that are involved who can meet regularly,
review the documents provide feedback and make these living documents that you can continue to build
off of as you move forward and learn more about your
audience and their journey. Exactly. The key is to do that more formal
stuff after you have something. Yes. Not before. This is kind of similar as well you’ve got the silo
stuff at the middle but then it’s important to have
some buy-in from the C-suite because we’ve all been there you work on a great marketing program you think you have your
T’s crossed and your I’s dotted and all of a sudden it gets in
front of somebody in the C-suite and they have some idea, right? And the idea must become
part of the program and you’re going, yeah, but I don’t
have a persona for this I don’t know where it fits
in the customer journey I don’t know where to go here and so you need to have
that buy-in from the C-suite as early in the process as possible. Why is that a hard thing to do? I think it’s a hard thing to do for
a couple of different reasons and the first one being that especially if you’re working
with an organization or for an organization that has multiple lines of business with customer crossover happening when you start talking about
persona-centric thinking this really threatens the way
that the business has been run for who knows how long and that change can
be a little bit scary and so when you start
talking about this new idea that sort of threatens the way
that we’ve always done things that can get shot
down pretty quick. Your C-suite is generally the
part of the organization that has the most experience they’ve been doing
this for a long time they’re in that role
because of the experience and expertise from
a leadership standpoint and a strategic standpoint
that they have this is foreign material to them. So, it’s a hard change for them to
make from a mindset standpoint, it’s not impossible though. Yeah. We’re asking them to go from looking
at this from a product service lens to looking at this from
the human side from the persona side and that is a huge shift and it’s not just a
shift in your mentality but it’s a shift in how you
move forward in general and that affects processes
and internal communication and there’s a wealth of
ways that this influences and changes how you do business. Yeah. So, the key, at least the keys
that I found to overcoming this and our customers have found is start with a briefing make sure they’re informed early but make sure that this information
is at the C-suite level that it’s at the executive level
and not mired in marketing speak. That’s a great point. I think this is a great time to bring
those thought leaders in that you talked about earlier where case studies from some
well-respected names in the industry names that your
C-suite has heard of or other industries or other organizations in similar
industries or other industries again that they’ve heard of this is going to help
lay the groundwork that you’re not trying to do something
that is totally new and out there and that people have
had success with this and not only have people had success but it’s people that they respect
who had success with it. Yeah and if you can pepper in a
story from disrupter in your industry somebody who threatens
your organization from the very fabric of
how you’re structured that can be really effective too because it lays that Oh! this is the future this is where they’re going we need to make sure that we’re
moving internally there as well. Exactly. When you do approach them about
producing customer journeys or show them some customer
journeys and some personas you want to limit the subset of these because even if within
the marketing department you’ve identified 20 different
personas that you’re going to develop and you’ve developed 10 show the executives three. They really only need to
know the key players you can mention that
there are others but show them the key players don’t give them too
much to digest at once and then make sure that when
you’re presenting materials the entire way through the process that they’re visual and that they can be understood
in five minutes or less because if you start showing them
your master customer journey document that contains who’s
pulling which ropes where from sales to customer
service to marketing and all of the key messages
for each point in there and which media
they’re interacting with and they’re going to – their eyes are going to glass
over that’s too much. Dumb it down make it simple,
make it visual and pretty and you’ll make friends in the executive
suite that will help you along the way. If that condensed presentation this high-level view of it has someone from the C suite
coming to you after the meeting and asking for the
more detailed documents you’ve just found your champion you found someone that can
help you push this through. So, this can be a great opportunity. The next key is to make sure that this is part of daily
or ongoing communications with the executive team. So, if you’re in a position where you’re producing reports
for the executive team or if your boss or someone
else within the organization is the person who’s producing those
reports for the executive team make sure that you are
referring back to the personas and the customer journeys
within your own reporting make sure that it’s
part of that narrative and that you don’t stray from that and then attach the actual personas
and customer journeys to the very reports that you’re
delivering to the executives so that they’re constantly
seeing this, it’s in front of them. So, even if they don’t get it even if they’re not
thinking this way or communicating back
to you in this way at least it’s perpetually
in front of them. Honestly I think this is one of the
best things that you can possibly do. You start to change
that internal vocabulary – excuse me – You start to change
that internal vocabulary and even if again
they’re not fully getting it they start using it they’re having the subconscious
buy-in before they even realize it and by attaching those as at the end
of the reports like you mentioned that’s great because you are going to have
such an intimate knowledge of these people and their journeys but other players whether it’s the C-suite or other
people within the organization they’re not going to and you want to make sure you have
those resources available to them should they want to look
into this a little bit further. And then this has
another benefit as well. If you get that C-suite ingrained or whoever it is that’s most dabbling
their fingers into the marketing whether that’s the president, the CEO, some VP of operations or the sales guy who’s
is leading sales a CRO or whatever if you get them ingrained in
this persona-centric thinking or at least understand it then when they come to you
with their next big crazy idea that you look at and go,
I don’t know how yeah, uh-ha, you can pull out your personas and your customer journeys and you can say,
hey, I’d love to do this can we talk through which
persona this is targeting and where it fits in
their customer journey. And out of that dialogue
the next thing you know it either turns into
something that’s actionable or it gets shelved for a future date. This is a fantastic tool
to be able to use. I can’t tell you how many times
thinking back over the years I’ve sat in meetings that have ran
way longer than they ever should have because we were arguing
some marketing tactic or some advertising,
piece of advertising or big promotional idea that
someone wanted to run someone in the C-suite wanted to run because it was their baby it was their personal preference and this would have been that the tool the conversation the question to stop
that in its tracks and get everyone back on track without looking like you’re being
argumentative or not a team player. So, this is one of those hidden gems and just one more reason
why persona-centric marketing is such a great tool
for the organization. Now you had mentioned
earlier, Elizabeth, that even if you’ve got
the C-suite on board that doesn’t mean the rest of
the organization has any clue what the heck you’re talking about when you’re throwing out a Bill and his
journey in the middle of some meeting right? So, how do you
address that problem? Yes. So, if the rest of the organization has
no clue what you’re talking about there’s no way that you’re going to
be able to collaborate with them or take them along for this
ride that you’re on as you’re trying to develop
this new content this new creative and these new
experiences for these customers. So, one thing that you
really want to look to is you want to find opportunities
to visualize your personas and turn the persona that you
have on paper into a visual display that the entire company can see. It can be posting them
in high-traffic areas so that anyone coming and going
has an idea who these people are. So, again to your point you
start talking about Bill the person next to
you is not thinking is he the new guy
that I haven’t met yet because if someone has
asked me that before they’ve literally asked me is that a
new person working at the company and it’s like no, we’re coming
back to the personas. So, we want to make sure that everyone
can see them on a regular basis and again this becomes
part of the internal vocabulary. And you want to do the same
thing if you’re responsible or someone within your department is
responsible for company-wide reports tie those back to the
personas wherever possible and attach them to the end
of those reports as well so that hopefully those
cross-departmental meetings where you’re getting
the marketing report it is persona-centric and it at least raises eyebrows or questions among other departments about what do you mean by personas and then hopefully that starts
a very healthy dialogue. Finally when we’re taking a look
at some of the roadblocks to a successful
persona-centric implementation one of the things that we
really have to be aware of is making sure that we are maintaining
our momentum as we move forward. Yeah. Every organization has tons of moving
parts that are in motion right now and this is true within
the marketing organization this is true within
the greater organization. In both cases you start talking about making a
move to persona-centric thinking and they’re going to say well we can’t
stop what we’re doing right now, right? It’s somewhat working. I mean it’s not like it’s all broken and if we just stop it then
we will stop delivering and that’s no good. The more you start to look at the
world through the eyes of your personas the more opportunities you’re
going to identify for personalization and for alignment with
the customer journey and an improved customer experience and so, even though
it’s easy to get held up with yes, but we
have to keep going the extra work that’s
going to be required is going to improve what it is
that you’re already doing and while you can’t fix
everything overnight you are going to start
seeing some small benefits it’s going to reinforce what it is
that you’ve already put in place. The key is to keep your head cool and make sure that you’re not
trying to move a mountain, right? So, remember that
something is working now it’s not like you’re in need
to get this implemented across all marketing activities today something’s working right now and you can phase
this in over time and it doesn’t need to
be done all at once all right now. I think it helps too if you
focus on the new you’ve got so many
new things going on you have new creative,
you have new content you have new data
that’s coming out and anything else sort of comes
out of the work that you’ve done you want to make sure that you’re
documenting this as you move forward and helping to really create
that persona-centric picture. So, you’re making sure that anything
you’re doing new is persona-centric. Then the next step is to start
slowly working backwards biting off bit by bit where can we introduce personalization where can we go back
and audit some of this content and make sure that it actually aligns
with a persona and a customer journey and if not fix that and that can be done in
small chunks over time you don’t have to go through every
single blog post on the blog and figure out who it was for
and why we wrote it all at once it’s not practical but can you go back and bite off
a couple of them a month and make sure that they’re edited
to conform to the target persona? Yeah, that’s doable. And if you’re wondering
where you should start because that can hold
you up a little bit too that’s where the customer
journey comes in you don’t want to be necessarily
spending your time updating content that isn’t a pivotal piece
in the customer journey. So, look to your customer
journey to really identify and prioritize those pieces that
are going to have the biggest impact. So, we managed to record another
long one today, Elizabeth. We’re really good at this. Really, listeners, we are working hard
to try and keep these short and concise. Hopefully you feel like they’re
just too value packed and it’s a good thing but let’s quickly sum up
what we talked about today. So, I think it’s important
again just to summarize when we’re talking about
persona-centric it means that we’re not only
focusing on customer needs but also differentiating them
based on their psychographics their demographics and where
they are in that customer journey. Then we went through
six common challenges faced by those that are trying to
enact this change in their marketing and where it tangentially
touches other departments. We outlined solutions
for each one of these we’re not going to rehash all
of them right this second but I encourage you if you haven’t
already to go subscribe to the show notes because that’s where you have an
opportunity to get the list of the six and we don’t have to
rehash them here. I want to thank everybody for taking
some time to join us today. We appreciate every moment
you spend with us. If you haven’t already please pop out
to iTunes and give us a review that helps others find our podcast and learn the same stuff
that you’re learning. Until next week
onward and upward! If you haven’t already, be sure to
subscribe to the podcast on YouTube on your favorite podcast directory. If you want notes and links to
resources discussed on the show sign up to get them emailed to you
each week at iterativemarketing.net. There you’ll also find
the Iterative Marketing blog and our community LinkedIn group where you can share
ideas and ask questions of your fellow Iterative Marketers. You can also follow us on Twitter. Our user name is @iter8ive or email us at
[email protected] The Iterative Marketing Podcast is
a production of Brilliant Metrics a consultancy helping
brands and agencies rid the world of marketing waste. Our producer is Heather Ohlman with transcription assistance
from Emily Bechtel. Our music is by SeaStock Audio,
Music Production and Sound Design. You can check them out
at seastockaudio.com. We will see you next week. Until then onward and upward!

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