Q&A with Chip Heath: The Power of Moments – Craig Groeschel Leadership Podcast (Audio)

Q&A with Chip Heath: The Power of Moments – Craig Groeschel Leadership Podcast (Audio)


– [Craig] One of my favorite things to do is to introduce you to great books, and today we’re gonna do that. Chip Heath is a good friend of mine. He’s a professor at Stanford
Graduate School of Business. He’s a New York Times bestselling author. His new book is one of my favorites, it’s called “The Power of Moments.” You’re gonna wanna listen,
you’re gonna wanna take notes, because there are some moments
that matter more than others. (upbeat electronic music) – [Woman] This is the Craig
Groeschel Leadership Podcast. – [Craig] This is Craig Groeschel, and I’m here with my friend, Chip Heath, who is an amazing bestselling
author and professor at the Stanford Graduate
School of Business. Chip, I could not be more excited to have you here with us today. – [Chip] Yeah, thanks for having me. – [Craig] Hey, several years
ago, I had the privilege of interviewing you and your brother Dan at the Global Leadership
Summit on a previous book that you’d written on change management, called “Switch,” and that
interview changed my thinking on change. Today, I am thrilled to
interview you about your new book that you released with your brother, called, “The Power of Moments.” And before we get into this
book, I just need to say, you sent me a copy before it came out, kinda to review and
give you some thoughts. I read it then, since it’s come out, I read it a second time, and I’ve listened to it two other times. It’s kinda safe to say
I’m obsessed with it. I read and listen to a lot of books– – [Chip] Well you probably
should have read it better so you didn’t have to
listen to it so many times. – [Craig] No, no, no, I read
and listen to a lot of books, and I put your book in the top three books that I’ve recommended
over the last five years. And that’s the top of a lot of books. I’m tellin’ everybody about it. And so, I can’t wait for
our listeners to hear about this book, to get the book, and to start living it out. Now, before we dive in, Chip, to the book, I’d love to kinda help
people get to know you. You’re a professor of
Organizational Behavior at Stanford. Can you tell us a little
bit of your background and how you ended up teaching at Stanford? – [Chip] So, I was an
engineer as an undergrad, and I fell in love with
decomposing problems and coming up with solutions from an engineering perspective, that, when I decided to
go to graduate school, I was thrilled to discover Psychology. And the kind of psychology
that I was studying was how people learn and
remember and make decisions. And so, I was fascinated
by that kind of psychology, and when I graduated with my PhD degree, I applied to business schools, because that was some of the place where I felt like there
was the most application for people making better decisions and for groups functioning better. And so, I spent my career
teaching MBA students and executives to think
about organizations and why they work and
sometimes don’t work. – [Craig] Well I’m glad that you’ve taken what you’ve learned through
organizational behavior and written the books that you’ve written. Whenever your next one comes out, I want a copy early. (laughs) – [Chip] You bet. – [Craig] And get on it. Let’s talk about the content in your book. In it, Chip, you talk about the importance of certain moments in our lives, and how certain moments
disproportionately matter to us. To help our listeners get
sense of the kind of moments that you’re getting at, tell us maybe, one of your favorite stories of what you might call a defining moment. – [Chip] So, one of my favorite stories is a story that comes up early in the book. It’s about a hotel called
the Magic Castle Hotel, in Los Angeles, and in Trip Advisor, it’s one of the top three ranked hotels. In fact, number one is a
hotel that’s very chic, very, very Hollywood,
they have heated floors in the bathrooms, there’s
a pool that’s the size of Connecticut, and it’s a stunningly elegant hotel. Number two is the Magic Castle Hotel that’s in a converted
1960s apartment building, painted kind of a Big
Bird shade of yellow. And so the facility’s
not great, the pool is probably smaller than the
average suburban pool, home pool, and yet, they
have extraordinarily high Trip Advisor ratings. And to understand that,
one of my favorite aspects of the Magic Castle Hotel,
is there’s a red phone beside the pool, looks like
it’s Cold War era surplus that the President might pick it up to call the Soviet Premiere
at a critical moment. And above the phone is a sign
that says, “Popsicle hotline.” And so you go over, and
you pick up the phone, and somebody in the office
says, we’ll be right there. And a few minutes later, somebody emerges outta the office, carrying a silver tray, wearing white gloves,
and there’re Popsicles mounted on the tray, and they
pass the Popsicles around to the people sitting at the pool, and the kids are smiling,
the adults are smiling, it’s a magical moment. And it’s extraordinarily inexpensive, it’s extraordinarily clever,
and that kind of thing, done over and over again, is what makes the Magic Castle successful. And yet, we go to hotels,
for the most part, and the hotel that we’re
staying in Austin, Texas looks like the hotel that
we stayed in San Francisco. There’s no sense of place that we’re in. There’s no sense of a moment that we’re in that’s different in New Orleans than Chicago than New York City. And so what the Magic Castle
Hotel has done very effectively is get people to think in a different way, to experience the world
in a different way, and that’s creating a moment. – [Craig] So I love this, I’m picturing a relatively normal hotel with
rooms that don’t stand out, what otherwise might be
an ordinary experience, but someone comes in,
and they’re taken aback, they’re surprised, they have
somethin’ to talk about. And so, you’ve got a business
that is otherwise predictable, and yet does something that
creates this kinda moment. What do you think this type of moment does in the mind of the consumer,
or the person who’s staying at that hotel? – [Chip] I think what it does, is it, it stands out from a
background of sameness. And, one of the points
about creating moments, so if we’re creating
moments with our families, we do the same thing a lot
of the time, on Saturdays. And, one of the favorite
exercises that we came up with, when we were piloting the
material for the book, is the surprise Saturday. We said to parents, let your
kids plan a Saturday for you. And whatever they wanna do, is fair game. And, your role is to say yes, as a parent, to everything that you
can possibly say yes to. And so, there’re these
extraordinary stories that came out of that, just doing
something different. And looking at the world through the eyes of your seven-year-old, for example. And, what people say is, it’s amazing that what they weren’t doing, is saying, let’s go to the amusement park, they were saying, can we pop popcorn and watch movies all afternoon? And the answer is yes. You know, can we go hang out at the pool, and bring some hot dogs
that we cooked at home? Yes. And so, what’s amazing, I think, is that it’s so easy to
create these moments, and yet we’re not doing it as families, and we’re not doing it in our businesses. – [Craig] That’s what I
loved about the book is, I think it spoke to me on
so many different levels. I found myself reading it, and one time, seeing myself as a dad in it, and how can I create moments with my kids? And the next time, I’d read
the very same paragraph, and I’d see myself as a leader. How can I take this to my organization, and so it really speaks to
so many different facets of who we are as people. I wanna kinda pull more out of you, because I think it can be really helpful. You did a in-depth
analysis of different kinds of defining moments, and what specifically
makes them memorable. Your first insight that really hit me, is about how memory works, and you talked about the significance of what you call peaks and endings, and I’d love to hear,
kinda your thoughts on why do peaks and endings
make things memorable? – [Chip] Yeah, this has
been an important area of research and psychology
over the last 20 years, and, in fact, Danny Conoman,
who won the Nobel Prize, a few years ago for
economics is a psychologist by training, and he’s piloted
a lot of this research in terms of what we remember. And so, if you think about your life as a university student, a
lot of you went to university, and it’s four years or five years, and if a researcher asked
you what you remember about that four or five
year period in your life, it turns out that you’ve
forgotten most of it, but about 40% of your memories will come from the first six weeks of freshman year. Now, why is that such a robust
time and memorable time? Well, there’re a couple
things that psychologists say. One is, things that are highly emotional are much more memorable,
and showing up to college, as a freshman, and going to
a party for the first time without somebody checking up on you at the end of the evening,
or, using a bank account, opening a bank account for the first time, something I did when I was a freshman, and going to classes and
organizing your college schedule. Those all become very memorable, because they’re novel experiences, they’re emotional experiences,
and they’re happening at the beginning of a period. And what psychologists have found is that things that are highly emotional, whether they’re peaks or pits, but also things that
happen at transitions, are differentially remembered by people. And so when we’re trying
to create experiences that matter to people, we’re
not managing everything. What we’re trying to do
is to manage the peaks and minimize the pits, and work on transitions a little bit more. And yet, we miss opportunities
for that all the time. Think about the first day at work. All of us have a finite number of jobs that we’re gonna hold in our lives, and yet, for the most part,
organizations don’t do very much at all with the first day of experience. And I think that’s a tragedy, because that’s a great opportunity to bond with the organization, to
get people enthusiastic about the organization, and so, I think we miss opportunities, because we don’t understand the psychology of what makes moments matter. – [Craig] Let’s talk a
little bit about that, Chip, I love what you said, the
things that are highly emotional are the things that are most memorable. And typically, in our
businesses, in our non-profits, in our workplace, we tend
to generally don’t drift toward that which is emotional. We kind of often stay in
our head and in logic. Let’s say we’re onboarding
a new team member. That’s a transition,
and you’re right about the reality of the
transitions and landmarks. They’re ripe for defining
moments, and yet, we often just let someone
come in and sit down and give ’em a handbook, and
that’s kinda their orientation. What would you suggest to
someone who’s maybe bringing on a volunteer into their
organization or a new staff member, how can they leverage that
moment, and create something that is emotional, and
therefore becomes memorable? – [Chip] Yeah, I think this
is one of the easiest ways to score points on the
employee satisfaction scale, I mean, we typically show up for a job, and the receptionist is happy to see us, but they actually thought we
were coming early next week. And so it’s not a great morning. So, I love the story of John Deere. They were entering China and India, and it’s a classic American company, but they weren’t well
known in China and India. And so there was an important
bonding moment that they had when they introduced a new employee. And in their revised procedure,
I show up in the morning, and I meet somebody that
I’ve been texting with, and that person is holding
my favorite beverage, which they’ve cleverly worked
into an earlier version of the texting conversation,
and the monitor in the back of the entryway says, “Welcome Shaapit.” And so, I go in the back,
and my computer monitor is hooked up, and there’s a screen saver that’s showing me beauty
shots of tractors. And you might not have
thought that tractors could be beautiful, but
there’re some beautiful pictures of tractors that flash across the monitor whenever it’s idle. And so, I log into my
email, and my first email is from the CEO. And the CEO talks about
the history and the legacy of John Deere, and how this
is a 175-year-old company. And the first John Deere
received the first patent for a plow that allowed farmers to plow three acres of land, as opposed
to two and a half in a day. And so, for 175 years, they
say we’ve been creating things, creating products, that
allow people to create food for their families and create
shelter for themselves. And so, I go through the
day, and there’s a sense of importance, there’s a sense of purpose. There’s a sense of, this is
an organization that matters. And I’m making connections. There’s a banner beside my cubicle that enables everybody to
see, it sticks up a little bit above the cubicle farm, and so people know that there’s somebody new on the floor, and when they have leisure
time, during their day, they stop by and say hi, but
it’s when they’re relaxed and ready to talk, as opposed
to when the person whisks me around the floor right before lunch. And so, I end up the day
with connections with people in the organization and
with a sense of pride about the work that I’m gonna be doing. I end up with a sense
of, this is meaningful, this is important, and the
reaction of John Deere employees when they started rolling out
this program for new employees is, they said, can we start over, so that we could go through this program? And I think that’s a
reaction that happens a lot when we finally create a
moment for our customers or for our employees, is why didn’t we think of this earlier? – [Craig] So the first
phase of me using your book, was exactly because of that teaching. I went and had my assistant
buy books for everyone on our HR team, and then, once
I went all the way through it I had him get it for
everybody on our team. But it’s amazing to me
how, if there’s any time that’s important in an employee’s
life in your organization, it’s the first few days,
and yet, we often have no intentionality, and with
just a a little bit of effort, we can create, not just an
appreciation for the job, but a love for it, and a
real, deep, missional buy in. And if there’s anybody
who is onboarding anyone, buy the book just for that section alone. I wanna kinda dovetail off that, because you write about transitions
and landmarks and firsts being moments to create,
opportunities to create moments. What are other types
of those opportunities in a business, in an
organization, where we can help leverage a success or cheer someone on, or give them something
that gives ’em a real deep sense of pride or a memory
that helps propel them forward? – [Chip] Yeah, I think
you’ve just listed a bunch of important ones, there’re
landmarks that are handed to us by life, and so, you know, transition from not being an employee to the
first day is a big transition. A transition from being
an individual contributor to a manger is an important transition. And we don’t celebrate that nearly enough. What if we had a moment,
and handed people a whistle, or a plaque with a whistle, and said, from now on, you’re the coach. You put points on the board by
working through other people. And this is the time when
you’re gonna change your mindset from being an individual contributor to being a coach of others. I think there’re tons of moments like that inside an organization,
there are tons of moments like that outside an organization. Probably nobody listening to this podcast, even if you’ve paid off
1/4 of your mortgage or 1/2 your mortgage,
did you get a note from your bank saying,
congratulations, you’ve reached a substantial milestone. And probably never has it happened that the bank manager, when
you complete your mortgage, shows up at your front door
with the deed to your house, and makes a ceremony of
turning it over to you. In fact, we were talking
to one bank, and they said, we do even worse than that, we charge people a fulfillment fee for finishing up your mortgage. And so, a moment that should
be a moment of celebration, becomes a moment of additional pain. – [Craig] Well, imagine
if the bank would do that, just how that customer
would come back to the bank to do other things, and then
recommend the bank like crazy, just for caring, and that’s
one of the things I love about the book is, it
doesn’t take a lot of money to create a moment, it
doesn’t even take a lot of effort sometimes, it
just takes being engaged, caring, and doing something,
and the dividends can go beyond what anybody could really imagine. I wanna talk about the four different ways that you write about, that
moments become memorable. You talk about moments of
elevation, and that’s the peaks. You talk about moments of insight. You talk about moments of pride, and then, you write about
moments of connection. Now for the sake of time, I
just wanna highlight a few that I think could really
change the game for leaders. Let’s start with the first one, the insight I think is so
important for any of us who create customer experiences. You talk about the peak experience, kinda like the Popsicles. What goes into creating a peak experience that a customer might enjoy? – [Chip] I think the real hint that we got from doing the research
on elevation is that, sensory experience matters, and one of my favorite questions
to ask to an audience is, how many of you have a
box from an Apple product that is just cool that you
couldn’t bear to throw it away? And Apple has less than 50% market share, in the phone market, for example, but basically everybody
that ever had an Apple phone has a box from an Apple phone
somewhere in their house, because the suction on that thing, when you’re trying to open
it up and see your new iPhone is so powerful, that
it’s just, it’s a moment. And only somebody as crazy as Steve Jobs would put the extra money,
and extra money is like, the difference between a
great box and a so-so box is two dollars versus 60 cents, you know? And on an 800 dollar
purchase, that’s not much. But thinking about that
experience carefully, is something that Apple does,
and almost nobody else does. And so it’s moments of sensory experience, it’s intensifying those moments, that really makes for
a moment of elevation. – [Craig] Take something that’s
ordinary, opening up a box, and create a cult-like
love for the organization, because there’s something special or different that stands out. Let’s talk about what you
call, a moment of insight. And I love this idea,
because it’s really critical, especially for those who
teach others or mentor others or lead, and you say that
a key to learning moments, often comes through
experiences that stretch us, give us insight, kinda
unpack that for us, please. – [Chip] Well, I think insight
was an insight for Dan and I, because so many of the
moments that we talk about in customer service situations
are moments of pleasure. And yet, when we think about insight, a lot of insights are painful. It’s like, alright, I
take a job, and I realize, this is not the job for me,
after some painful experiences, or I stretch to meet a deadline
or to do something different than I’ve done before, and
I realize I came up short. And so, many moments
of insight are moments that are painful moments. But one of the most interesting studies that I’ve seen recently,
there’s a great book called, “The Challenger Sale.” And researchers interviewed
people about the salespeople that were most useful for them as B2B organizations, the customer side of the B2B interaction, and sure enough the
person that we think of as a classic salesperson,
that manages the relationship, that’s there 24/7, those
kinda salespeople were valued. But even more, what customers value, is the person that they said, you know, it wasn’t always easy
interacting with so and so, because they challenged me,
and they challenged me to think about my organization differently or my industry differently,
but man, was that useful. And so, it’s kind of
interesting that the salespeople that are making people feel
comfortable in the relationship are not the most valued,
it’s the salespeople that are asking you questions
that produce insights that may make me uncomfortable. Those are the people that are most valued. And I think that’s an important
thing to keep in mind, as mentors and managers and parents, is sometimes the things
that we do for people, producing insights, even
though those insights may be challenging at the time. – [Craig] You know,
that really speaks to me as a guy who played sports
growing up, as an athlete. The coaches that I remember
weren’t the soft ones, they were the ones that
pushed us to do more, and I think as leaders,
sometimes we wanna be liked, and we wanna be popular,
and maybe something better is to be respected. (laughs) And by helping push people
and have that aha moment or the realization they can
do more, giving that insight, might actually be more valuable
when we’re a little bit more firm or more honest, or
give them direct feedback, than when we’re trying
to be liked and popular. Another insight that’s really critical for those of us who lead
teams and organizations, you talk about that meaning or purpose builds defining moments of connection, and I really love the way
you write about connection. Talk about why shared purpose
actually connects people and then creates really valuable moments. – [Chip] Yeah, there’s an
emerging area of research that looks at why we want to lose ourselves in groups. And the traditional
economist’s view of the world is that people are self-interested,
they’re in for their own goals and agendas, and yet we look around, and
there are all kinds of groups that people participate in,
so, political organizations or church organizations or
people that are inspired by the mission of the business, that one of the reasons I
become a member of that group is because I really value being part of something bigger than myself. And I think very often, as leaders, we don’t take advantage of that purpose, in crafting a purpose, to draw people in to the mission of our organization. And so, we talk about an organization called Sharp Healthcare,
one of the biggest healthcare firms in San
Diego, in the United States. And they committed themselves
to become the best place to be a patient, the best place to work, the best healthcare system
in the known universe. So they actually had a
sense of humor about it. But inspiring that mission
and broadcasting that mission energized the organization in a way that the nurses were
doing things differently, and the physicians were
doing things differently. But I love the fact that
even the grounds people got engaged, and they
noticed that, as they walked through the hospital floors,
that there were patients that never received flowers or
never got anything beautiful in their room, and so they
started clipping things from outside, in the hospital grounds, and bringing the flowers
in to the patients that didn’t have any, and they called it, the This Bud’s For You campaign. And so when you get your
maintenance, landscaping people involved in your corporate transformation, I think that’s a good sign
that you’ve created something that is more of a purpose. – [Craig] I’m fascinated with that story. I’m always intrigued and wanna study, in an
organization that just, when the bottom line is the bottom line, and all you’re trying to do is make money, people will not innovate,
they’re not gonna bring their hearts, they’re
just gonna do a job. But you can take any type of work, and if you connect meaning to it, then you’re gonna have the
guys working out in the garden coming up with brilliant ideas
to push the mission forward, and I think that’s a really
challenge to all of us, to look at our organizations and say, how can we connect meaning and purpose to what we’re doing? And that’s gonna drive so much care. In fact, you kinda talk about this, and I really love the way you said it, I highlighted the
daylights outta the page. You talk a little bit
about young leaders today, are often kinda coached
to find their passion, but you had this really
interesting graph in your book about the relative importance
of passion and purpose. And you say that purpose
is the hands-down winner. Talk about your research
and what it revealed about purpose. – [Chip] Well, actually
I’ve gotta give props to the person that did the research, that we were just talking about. Morten Hansen, at Berkeley
went out and interviewed 5,000 leaders and the managers of those leaders. So these are people that are performing at a very high level, and
yet, what he finds is that, if I have individual passion about my job, that’s good, and it leads to an increase in my chances of being
in the very top echelon of leaders, as measured by the study, from maybe 20% to 40%, I’m
not gonna remember the numbers on the table precisely. But purpose, buying into
something that was broader than myself, buying into
a purpose that existed in the organization, that raised things by about double the amount
than my individual passion did. And so we often encourage people to do what you’re passionate about, but maybe what we ought to be saying is, find a purpose that people can buy into. And one of my favorite
stories that didn’t make it into the book is about a carpet company that started telling
people, look carpets are a huge bit of toxic
waste waiting to happen, because they’re made out of oil, and when we finish with them,
and we dump ’em in a landfill, we’re dumping oil into a
landfill, and very often, we burn them up or consume them somehow. And so, they started
saying, what if we could be environmentally positive,
as an organization that makes carpets? And all of a sudden, people
that would not normally get excited about a carpet company, they were actually located in Georgia, so you get people from
New York City saying, if you had told me a few years ago, that I was gonna be working for
a carpet company in Georgia, and I’d be excited about it, I
would’ve said you were crazy. But that vision of, could
we take a major industry, that has been bad for the environment, and turn it into something
that’s net positive, is an exciting thing. We don’t take the time to
unpack why our organization is doing something
important and meaningful, because that’s what people
are gonna respond to, and that’s what makes leaders great, is buying into that purpose. – [Craig] Yeah, I think what
you said is so important, you know, the why really, really matters. I wanna transition a
little bit to the how. What do you see as the
most significant barrier to creating moments
like that in our lives? Why is it that we don’t tend
to do it more regularly? – [Chip] I still, even
after working on the book, I constantly find myself
missing opportunities to create moments, and I think, we just get sucked into
life, and the moment of life, and it does require that
you pause a little bit to create a moment, and so,
you know there are some moments that are culturally handed to us. I love, birthday parties are
kinda culturally constructed to create moments,
they’re elevation moments, you’ve got cupcakes,
food and fat and flame in one kinda compact
object, and so there’s a sensory experience there. We bring together our friends and family, moments of connection, but think about, what if we added some pride to a birthday? And so, some families will mark
the height of their children against a doorstep, and so
you see how much you’ve grown in the last year, what
if we had a time capsule from each year, where we
talked about the TV shows that the kid was watching,
the math homework that our child was doing,
and our child could look back two years and say, wow I was
doing that math two years ago? That’s so easy! And there’d be a tremendous,
I think, sense of pride, that would come from
that minor modification of the birthday procedure,
and yet, we don’t think about those things very often. We don’t think about the
first day for the employee, we don’t think about creating the purpose that’s gonna inspire the landscape people in our organization. And what Dan and I hoped to
do, by writing this book, is get people a set of
tools to just prompt them to think about moments in a different way, and hopefully take away
some easy suggestions for making a big impact on people. – [Craig] So, Chip, you had
a couple of great quotes that are incredibly relevant, and I wanna read one and have you talk about it. And then I’m gonna read the other one. The first one, it really hits
me right between the eyes, because it’s so true in my organization. I know that other leaders
are gonna relate to this. You say that, “It’s usually no
one’s job to create a peak.” Kinda unpack that for us, if you will. – [Chip] Well, we have
customer complaint departments, and we have TQM and Six Sigma missions to improve our quality, whenever we have a complaint
or we have a problem. But we’ve typically got
no one that’s a member of the peak creation department. And we’ve got no one that’s
thinking about how do we generate ideas or how do we do better than we’ve ever done before? In fact, in our research,
organizations say they they spend 80% of their time fixing problems and only 20% of their
time devoting to peaks. And yet, the research says,
that there’re probably nine dollars on the table
for creating a peak moment for someone, as opposed to
a dollar that you might get from resolving a complaint. And so the upside is huge,
and yet, we’re not focused in organizations on
creating those peak moments. – [Craig] Yeah it doesn’t
make a lot of sense, because it’s the peak
moments that we talk about. Anytime someone does something
that exceeds the norm in customer service, I become
a raving fan and go crazy about that, and yet, if we’re
only spending 20% of our time working on it, it really shows
we’re devaluing something that could have so much of a return. You had another quote that
just jumps off the page at me. You said this, and it’s in regard to creating meaningful moments, you said, “Be aware of the soul-sucking
force of reasonableness.” Unpack that for me. – [Chip] (laughing) Yeah,
one of the biggest insights about bureaucracy is that
bureaucracy was designed to solve a set of problems. And when Max Weber first
described bureaucracy, it was a wonderful thing,
because, instead of allocating resources by nepotism or by arbitrary whim of the leader, we had routines, and we had procedures, and we were doing things systematically. But because bureaucracies are systematic, we get all the downsides of routinization. And the soul sucking-force
of reasonableness says that, if somebody in most organizations propose the Popsicle hotline,
for their organization, for their hotel, well, the first objection would be from the operations
people, and they said, have your really thought
through the logistics of having the Popsicles beside the pool? You know, brought out by
the front desk person? And the HR person’s gonna
get involved and say, you know, we’ve got these highly-trained front desk specialists, and
do we really wanna pull them offline to be passing out
Popsicles at the pool? And then, they’re gonna
propose, of course, that we make it self-serve,
and we have a machine by the pool, so that you
could self-serve Popsicle. And then people say, well,
but that’s kind of expensive, and suppose, instead of
refrigerated Popsicles, suppose we get lollipops, and
we give everybody a lollipop? And then the people that
are doing OSHA things, they go, but lollipops are bad for braces and might be swallowing
hazards for the kids. And so, systematically,
everybody doing their thing, means that good ideas, very often, are morphed out of being
good and into the domain of plausible, reasonable,
routine kind of ideas. And so you kinda wind up with
a self-serve sugar dispenser by the pool, and we’ve
taken all of the joy out of the Popsicle moment. Because what organizations do,
is they make things standard and predictable and routine. And for the most part,
those are good tendencies of organizations, that’s what
makes organizations reliable, introducing the products
and services that they are. But it’s death on peak. – [Craig] So I’m gonna
summarize, kind of what I think you’re saying,
and if I get it right, you can give me the thumbs up. And then this is gonna set
some leaders free to go crazy. Would you say this is accurate,
to be more successful, or to be more memorable, you
need to be more unreasonable? Is that fair? – [Chip] I think that’s right. We’re talking about breaking the script as an important part of organizations that are gonna be successful. And so, you want a script,
because you wanna do things predictably right most of the time. But if you don’t have moments
when you break the script, we were talking about families earlier, if you don’t have the
Saturday, that turn it over to your 15-year-old or
your seven-year-old child, and say, this is your Saturday,
you miss opportunities to create family moments and
moments for our businesses. – [Craig] I can see it now,
some husband’s gonna go home, he’s gonna break the
script, he’s gonna say, come on, we’re going
out to dinner tonight, and the wife’s gonna say, are you drunk? Or whatever, but yeah
I can feel it comin’. I can feel it comin’, they’re
gonna be more unreasonable, be free, be creative, do
something, break the script. Let’s talk about intentionality. Based on your research, what is the key to getting over the, we’re stuck, we know we
should do it, but we don’t How do we practically
become more intentional in creating memorable moments? – [Chip] I think that shrinking the change is an important idea, so
you wanna take a small step towards this, and very
often that small step is gonna give you momentum. And so, you can imagine that first day procedure for the new employee. You start off with something simple, like having the texting
buddy that shows up with the favorite beverage in the morning. That’s one change, but
people are gonna be so jazzed about that, that it’s
gonna give you enthusiasm and energy to make the next change. So I think, the way to
start this is to start. Somewhere. Make a gesture. And those things are gonna
build on each other over time, and you’re gonna wind up
with some incredible moments. – [Craig] I love that so much, because that’s what your book did, it moved me, both
professionally and personally, just to start. And I think if we have eyes to see what could be a moment, in
fact there may be someone that goes home, and has an opportunity with a child to stretch them, to offer
a word of encouragement. You know, as parents,
we forget just how much our kids need that affirmation from us. The same is true in the workplace. That most people don’t
leave bad companies, they leave bad managers. And a simple, you did good,
I noticed it, a thank you, a public affirmation,
a private affirmation, a handwritten note, a
presentation at lunch, an impromptu speech. I love what you say about
just getting started. If you were gonna give me,
kinda one final thought, one push, one motivation,
to help me get started? If I’m not confident, I don’t
know maybe exactly what to do, what would you say to me to
help push me over the line to create something special,
something memorable, that’ll pay amazing dividends in the lives of people I care about? – [Chip] I’ll leave you with one story to show how simple it can be. There’s an award at Hewlett-Packard, a great engineering firm,
that’s called the Golden Banana. And it was inspired by an
incident back in the 1960s, so this has a lot of history
behind it at this point, where an engineer shows
up to a manager’s cubicle and talks about a
breakthrough that he just made on a problem that the
team had been facing. And the manager was so inspired by this, that he reached over,
and he was looking around for something to commemorate the moment, and he had a banana left
over from his lunch. And he ceremonially handed, the engineer that just made the breakthrough, a banana. And that was such a
spontaneous, wonderful gesture, that the organization picked it up and started institutionalizing it. And so managers would
keep supplies of bananas for great moments, and
it eventually became part of a plaque. You know, that you have a
golden banana on a plaque now. But what I love about that story is, it symbolizes how easy
it is to get started. You pick up the leftover
banana from lunch, and if you present it with the right flair and show your gratitude, it
becomes an important symbol that’s meaningful to the
person that you’re thanking. And we’re so bad at doing
that in our family lives and with our kids, with our spouses, with our employees at work,
with our customers at work, that any movement that we make is gonna have big implications. – [Craig] The book is called,
“The Power of Moments,” and it’s by Chip and Dan Heath. It’s a book that will move your heart, it will inspire your leadership, it will improve your relationships. I wanna close out with some words that you wrote from the book, this is what Chip and Dan said, they
said, “And that’s the charge “for all of us, to defy
the forgettable flatness “of everyday work and life “by creating few, precious moments. “What if every organization in the world “offered new employees an unforgettable “first day experience? “What if every student
had an academic experience “that was as memorable as prom? “What if every patient was
asked, what matters to you? “What if you called that
old friend right now “and finally made that road trip happen? “What if we didn’t just
remember the defining moments “of our lives, but what if we made them? “Our lives are the treasure
chest in the closet. “We can be the designers of
moments that deliver elevation “and insight and pride and connection. “These extraordinary
minutes and hours and days, “they are what make life meaningful, “and they are ours to create.” Chip, I can’t tell you and
your brother thank you enough. I devour every book that you write. I consider it a gift to
me and to our audience. I wanna tell you thank you
so much for your hard work. Thank you for being brilliant
and using your brilliance to make a difference in
the lives of other people. If this podcast is helpful to
those of you who are listening it would mean the world
to me if you’d rate it or review it. Also share on social media. Tell other people about
the interview with Chip. Buy his book for yourself,
buy it for your team member. I promise you, your team
members will love it. Finally, I wanna give a personal plug for the Global Leadership Summit. That’s where I first met
Chip and Dan a few years back and had the honor to interview them. For those of you that are
not familiar with the event, I’ve made it a practice
to attend the summit every year for over a decade,
because that’s where I learn from leaders, may I’ve
never heard of before and many who are the
sharpest in their field. It occurs every August
in the United States, and it’s broadcast
across the United States to hundreds of sites. If you’re in the US, there’s
surely a site near you. And there’s sites all over the world. Bring your team with you to
the Global Leadership Summit, because when the leader gets
better, everyone gets better. Thanks again, Chip, I appreciate
you being with us today. – [Chip] Thank you. – [Young Man] Thank you
so much for listening to the Craig Groeschel Leadership Podcast. Now, if you love what you
were hearing from Craig, and you wanna show your support,
subscribe to this podcast. Also, go over to iTunes,
rate it, and review it, and share it with your
friends on social media. There’s also a leader guide
for this specific episode. All you have to do is go to
life.church/leadershippodcast. In that leader guide, here’s
what you’re gonna get. You’re gonna get additional
resources, a recap, and discussion questions. Until next time, thank you so much for listening to the Craig
Groeschel Leadership Podcast. (bright instrumental music)

5 thoughts on “Q&A with Chip Heath: The Power of Moments – Craig Groeschel Leadership Podcast (Audio)

  1. I think the reason we don't experience these moments often is because of isolation and lack of relationship. Its something we all crave at times. We all feel how magical it is to experience great moments as these. Being present is hard to do until we get healthy enough to have that switch, thought life, believes change. Great insight. I'm practicing being present every day. Pass it on !!

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