Mormon Stories #700: How the LDS Quorum of Apostles Think – Enemies list and Area Business Weekends

Mormon Stories #700: How the LDS Quorum of Apostles Think – Enemies list and Area Business Weekends

My name is on the slide and ordain women is on the slide They are listed as enimies to the church And of course local leaders are going to be excommunicating people like me and Kate Anyway, Lindsay, keep going, sorry about that. You guys are criticizing the data which, I agree, I’m sure it’s not scientifically gathered. But I feel like this is a pretty accurate chart I mean, I feel like in the issues that I deal with these are, there’s not really any that I see that I’m like oh no that’s not true. Whether we place a moral value on it is a different story. But I think that this is true especially in this time period. And I think a lot of us, it’s easy for us to forget the momentum. These are issues that were, and still are affecting people. And I think a lot of us, it’s easy for us to forget the momentum. You know in 2014 there was a lot of momentum, 2013 there was a lot of momentum around these specific orange issues. So I think it looks accurate. So you’re saying Ordain Women, John Dehlin, Denver Snuffer, Church History issues, LGBT issues, you’re saying those are the main issues. I mean, I think they’re super reductive and they’re dismissive of people’s pain, but for a slide when you’re trying to explain people’s issues I think, yeah. I think they’re, I think they’re all symptoms not issues. To me they are symptoms of the underlying problems and that’s what I’m going to get to. Okay, so Jessie we’re going to hit that at the end in about 7, 8 minutes but John Hamer, what’s your reaction to the Orange, to the orange bubbles? Well I think your interpretation, you know, that the disagree with current policies as LGBT stuff cuz I’m like gay doesn’t get one bubble? Well, Gina got one bubble that was just like “ites” right?? Right? I know, I mean so Gina got a bubble They say it’s just grafted(?), it’s not gay just so we’re clear. Gayites, there’s one for gayites! … and Lamanites. But, yeah, uh, you know, in terms of all of these things, like, like you say, are these? I didn’t think, well when you first showed us this slide you know we went through and you said hey would you make us some slides about how you think it would really be? And so I put in you know, slides that I think were more causal as opposed to uhm, you know, that these things that were symptoms or something like that but, I mean in some ways a lot of these things are, are the issues that obviously they’re dealing with on all these different sides. But I think that, uhm, some of these things, especially in the middle. We’re not doing the blue ones but the things in the blue are supposedly guess overlap and everybody has these problems you know with pornography, with going to stores on Sunday, you know, not committing, not being righteous, that kind of thing. So I think that those are them just telling themselves there own, you know that’s what they want to hear, right? That the people who aren’t staying loyal it’s because they just have trouble with porn, they just can’t commit, or theyjust want to buy stuff on Sundays or something like that You know, and so in those kind of ways I think that those are kind of the old answers. You know, it’s called issues and ideas leading people away and there are three of these that are, I guess four if you count false prophets. You know there are four of these that are people focused, individual focused. It’s as if, as if they can identify just one enemy and go after that enemy that that’s somehow going to make everything right. You know, whereas what really is the only one of those things almost uhm that they could actually address is the one over in the far corner that says ‘Need something more.” That’s actually, that’s actually you’d think of that instead of it being something to squelch people about you know and step on them you could say hey, maybe we aren’t offering anything other than Wonder bread without the crust every week You know maybe we could actually be doing something that would be interesting that would actually address that kind of need that people have. Does it bug, okay, so none of you were mentioned on this slide but I was. Does it bug any of you that they are naming names? That people’s like, imagine thousands of stakes all over the world. They are actually naming people’s names as enemies of the church for potential targets let’s just say. Does that bug anybody? I was going to say that Does it bug you that you’re their pornography? Like, people are like sneaking under their sheets at night to listen to John Dehlin And when their mom opens the door they’re like what? what? I’m not listening to anything. Like pornography. Does that bother you? I mean, it’s you know, we have a kind of sometimes scary history Sometimes when religion is involved people can do scary things. So, do I like the fact that apostles and 70’s are running around naming me as an enemy? Especially when I feel like what I’m trying to do is save marriages, prevent divorce, Prevent LGBT suicides, help people with depression and anxiety Like yeah, it’s true that the stuff we talk about on Mormon stories can sometimes be correlated with people leaving the church But I’m not the one that slept with 14 year olds. I’m not the one that forged uh, the kinderhook plates Or the, pretended I could translate the Abraham papyri when I couldn’t. So it’s like it’s the stuff I’m getting blamed for I do’t think it’s really me it’s just that we’re talking about it. And the stuff that I’m trying to do to do good I don’t think makes it so that I should be on everyone’s mouths and lips as an enemy of the church And who knows what safety or practical implications it has for people like me or Denver to be named as enemies of the church all around the world, it’s You’re not an enemy to the church, you’re an enemy of public affairs. *chuckle* And I’d be willing to vouch that’s, that’s the case. Uh, that pubic affairs is worried about you and they’ve made it, uh, they’ve made the point to the 70 as well that they need to be concerned. It’s just a pissing competition. The whole thing. I would, I would just say you know I think Lindsay, and Jessie, and everybody is really onto something. John I think we’re, I think you’re making the mistake of not looking at it from the believing Mormon perspective. I mean, you’re right, that at the end of the day they’re like blaming the messenger here. But from the faithful Mormon perspective, that’s not the way they say you. They, no mater what you say of what your motivations are That you’re trying to save marriages or, you know, whatever the fill in the blank is. No matter how sincere your statement about that is Your podcasts are seen as tearing down the church Just like, anecdotally, in 2013 your podcasts had a huge role in me leaving the church. You know, whether that was your intention or not So I think from the believing Mormon standpoint, I think that you know, when Lindsay says you know, they kind of have a point with some of that that is the point People are listening to some of your podcasts and even if its not your intention to lead them astray it is opening, it is opening the door to information that they never knew about And it becomes a springboard and so that’s the way the church is looking at it. That’s the way I see it. Hey John, can I talk about them naming you? I know that this slide was not made for public consumption so this, I guess this does not count within context. But, in the way that they have talked to you it is no secret that you are uhm, a problem or a thorn in your side and I back up what you say about it that it is dangerous Some of the worst, ugliest, most violent things that were ever said to me online was when I was involved with Ordain Women. Certainly the Ordain Women Board can attest to that Death threats and those kind of things. I know I know I saw some terrible things said to Julie Rowe about it. People take this stuff seriously. I just recorded a podcast on the history of violence and Mormonism so I take this very seriously. I think that that’s a legitimate concern to be named as something like that. I really wish the church would be more introspective and thoughtful about this. I know people and I know them. I’ve met some of the people that take this stuff very, very literally and very seriously so that is a concern. Any, any other people want to jump in on that really quick before we kind of get in some other summarizing thoughts? Okay. Uhm, alright So go, and thank you Lindsay, thanks everyone so far. Uhm, there’s a blue bubble in the middle which is pornography, chastity, blue bubbles in the middle. Pornography, chastity, lack of righteousness, lack of commitment and Sabbath. So, so if it’s not these evil boogie men on the left or the right that are ruining the church. Or, boogie women as Ordain Women might be Then it’s that the members themselves can’t stop having sex, can’t stop masturbating, basically can’t keep their pants on. Uhm, aren’t righteous, aren’t you know respecting the Sabbath enough just aren’t committed. So this is just the typical uhm you know, uh that they left the church because they weren’t committed, didn’t believe and wanted to sin. Is it anything more than that? I’m just surprised they don’t have word of wisdom issues. I guess that’s just lack of righteousness. Whatever, uhm yeah, no, I think that those are just their excuses. The fact, the uhm, you know the fact that of all the different things there are a bunch of gate keeping issues, And that there are things that are tough to be LDS or active LDS The fact that you have to pay all of this money in tithing, the fact that you are avoiding alcohol and coffee and this kind of thing. The border issues are actually, you know Sabbath and these kind of things. Are actually strengthening, they strengthen the border right? So that actually keeps people in. So even though people like like to list that as oh they were just so weak they had to do those things. It’s in fact those border issues for an organization as actually strengthening. I agree with John Hammer completely. This one actually makes me sad because I think in my experience the biggest supporters to the church that strengthen and are most loyal to the church are the people that have these issues. Uhm, we call them Jack Mormons or whatever they are people that struggle or drink, have word of wisdom problems or pornography problems. And yet, and maybe they stop attending church or fall away from participation but they never stop believing. They carry this like calcified shame over their shoulders of like the church is true, I know it’s right, I just know I don’t fit. Someday I will. I’m going to make it work someday. But they have to put I mean, I was just going to say they have to put them in the bubbles on the slide to make that shame effect work. But it doesn’t! I just also want to add that it’s not just Jack Mormons. I think that most Mormon men and probably a huge chunk of Mormon women are struggling with pornography. In part because the church, as Jessie helped us to understand. The church actually exacerbates the pornography problem. ‘ I’m sure there’a a good chunk, you know 2/3 of Mormons are inactive so there are a ton of inactive Mormon’s that aren’t super committed or enjoy football or boating on the Sabbath. Chastity, I’m sure that What about how they’re putting pornography up with John Dehlin, Ordain Women up with like breaking the Sabbath. These rhetorical uh uses they are doing here are very effective and they are used for a reason and it’s coded to all of us and we get the message that all of these things are dangerous, right? All of these things are dangerous. And that’s the part that makes me upset about it. And again, the slide wasn’t made for public consumption but it was made to, given to leaders who are supposed to be spiritual guides to help members. And this is how we framing issues as dangerous? Like? That goes back to my radio show we can talk about more in a second. But in that these are all symptoms I mention and I’ve written about that my obsession, my personal obsession with pornography ended when I stopped, when I left the church and, uh These are all symptoms of underlying problems that I wish they’d focus on. Something to keep in mind with this is it’s called “Issues and Ideas”and wording matters in these types of presentations. My guess is that this presentation wasn’t even made by the quorum of the 70 or the twelve it was probably made by a church employee as we discussed. Uhm, and uh likely was passed on to a member of the 70 who then passed it on to the twelve and I doubt much got changed other than a little of feedback here and there. back and forth so I do think we have to take some of these with a grain of salt. But they do sound like, it just tells me the church is focusing too much on symptoms and not looking for the underlying problem. Okay, really quick because we’re almost out of time, uhm, I’m going to ask you to prepare a closing statement. But before I do, John Hamer, if it’s okay I’m going to bring up the one slide that you put together. And I’m going to have you just sort of read off what you put in your bubbles. So here is is. It’s on the screen, can you read us your bubbles? You’re muted John, you’re going to have to un-mute yourself. Sorry, yeah so, so I uh, took the same thing to understand like this is even the far left, far right issues people are having on the different sides and then things in the right bubble all of the people who don’t live in the United States. So for the red bubble I wrote church totally USA focused. *chuckles* Gina loves that, ok, that’s the Gina bubble. And then I wrote for people, that kind of, that affects people on the left and the right, in the blue bubble I wrote: Church lies about history, and that’s I think inarguable, church acts like a corporation, I’m sorry, correlation makes church so horribly bland. I think that that affects people on the right and on the left. Church work is busywork. So everything the church calls you to do feels so hollow, meaningless and pointless Poor apologetics backfire. And I think that affects both left and right So people are tying to toe the church line with apologetics in the right and the left and they both don’t do it very well. And so then on the left I wrote, you know, things that are big issues that people have problems with. With those the being born lesbian or gay because I thought I did not make a circle but I guess I it did. Uh, Temple stuff so freaky, Joseph Smith’s Polygamy which does seem like a central issue that always affects people. Uh, Book of Mormon not ancient and really, the big one, believing that women are actually people and I think that is obviously affecting people on the left an awful lot. On the right uhm what I wrote uh was and I can’t see it entirely in terms of this covering up, anyway current teachings contradict scripture. And so that’s what I think uh, what’s his face, the institute teacher He’s going through the old testament and showing all of these things where current teachings don’t go with scripture. There’s no new revelation in scripture The church lacks gifts the spit describes in its history and scripture. Denver Snuffer is constantly saying you know why aren’t we feeling all of these gifts of the spirit? You can do that, you can see Christ, you know those kind of things. Uhm, and then, uh, church teaching is lacking divine authority. The leaders do but the prophet never speaks prophetically And finally, uh, 19th century teachings have just been silently eliminated And so, uhm, if you like I was saying if you read the Journal of Discourses and are a right wing thinker you will immediately notice that every single thing about the current teachings of the church is contradicted by things Brigham Young said over the pulpit. And in fact Brigham Young or John Taylor frequently say if the church ever did this or that it would be in apostasy. And so that’s why if you start doing that, if you start having a Wednesday night scripture reading group with your right wing friends in Mormonism you’re about a year away from being in your own church You’re about you know a year and a half away from having your wife being married to your friend. and then everybody being you know and you’re just being one of the followers in this new fundamentalist church. Alright John, I want to count this as your goodbye statement. Do you have any other just quick closing thought to add to that? The only other thing I was thinking is that for the whole rest of this slideshow these are all the issues and we focused in on this money shot slide that you were talking about but one of the ideas of it is That our answer to this, the whole point of this slide show, yeah, we have all of these problems, but the answer is we are going to have these rescues You know, rescue weekends. We’re going to have the boys rescue, the Sweden rescue And I think that again this is just showing that when you’re doing this internal preaching to the choir You think that these rescues are actually going to do anything. If you address any of these problems It’s a problem by being surrounded by yes men. It just isn’t, I don’t think it’s a solution that has any legs. Beautiful, thank you John Hamer, Gina, you go. Well, I think if you look at this graphic you could just about swap out just about any of these bubbles with a major issue the church is having. And this is what bothers me Instead of problemitizing the organization and the church itself it is problemitizing everything outside of it. So you can change ordain women into patriarchy, John Dehlin into social media, secularism into just a lack of spiritual depth You can talk about disagree with current policies, well actually, we’ve got dumb policies. Incredulity over church history? Well they tried to turn church history into mythology and it didn’t work so they needed an outlet to get that back Chastity and pornography? Excessive purity discourse. this sort of lack of commitment, lack of righteousness? It is emphasis on a very pressurized muscular fiction and it’s exhausting. There’s this, we missed one thing in there, boredom. Its boredom to hear the same thing year and year after year right? John Dehlin: That’s need something more, isn’t it? Need something is more is saying oh, you actually want to enjoy church? That’s ridiculous. Yeah, ridiculous. You should just endure church and then count your many blessings Uhm, you know you’ve got mixed family systems, lack of diversity, you’ve lost Jesus somewhere in the call. I don’t know where Jesus got to. Maybe lost on the sixth floor? Who knows. False prophets, well yeah. How about that? How about that that we do have some false prophets. You know, too many of them. What about a lack of robust theorlogy? What about the fact that the church has actually lost it’s way? And those two bubbles on the right hand side Which say church has lost it’s way or it’s deficient and need something more. I like that it says in quotes “how about that”? And I’m not sure if that’s a rhetorical thing or maybe they’re taking that seriously. I would hope that they are. So, I’m uh, you know, flipping all around, church people flipping all around. Start pointing some fingers in the right direction. That the crazy notion maybe that you have gotten these these wrong and that you as an organization are failing the people. Beautiful, Amen, Gina. Alright Jessie, you close and tell us if Jesus is on the sixth floor. *chuckles* I can confirm that Jesus is not on the sixth floor. Maybe in pictures, but in a lot of prayers, but that’s about it. Ant that’s one thing I was going to point out and I mentioned the title. It says “Issues and Ideas Leading people away from the gospel” I don’t see Jesus anywhere on this slide and that’s an issue in and of itself. That uh, that uh, there is not a focus, even on the slide, of Jesus. I’ve, I’ve mentioned, and I don’t know if you want to show, show my alternative slide but I’ll show it somewhere if you don’t here John. But I did my own alternative where I put symptom on just about every bubble except for the two on the right of the churches loss it’s incredulity and false prophets. And I don’t mean that in a way that the right might be doing it. I mean it as Gina said, that they could genuinely be an issue. And I hope we’re questioning that and in trying to decide how we lost our way and has the needle moved away from that, Christ, Jesus, and I argue even beyond that to God. Uh, and where is the church at the moment? I had one other alternative bubble that I listed that summarized what I think the underlying single problem of people leaving the church at the moment is. And that is that it eventually I think for every single person that leaves the church and actually stops going, leaves the church, removes their records, or even that just stops going, is that eventually at some point It becomes easier for them to leave then it does to stay the alternate name I gave that was, was uh the don’t let the door hit you on the way out philosophy. Uhm, almost every person that I know that has personally left and I’m not going off of any statistics either Has eventually hit that in their life They may have been willing to accept the faults of the prophets, they may habe been willing to accept issues here and there but when it became easier for them to leave then to stay that’s when they left. Either they were excommunicated or they chose to leave at some point. And I think that’s what it’s going to come down to. I want to see stats though, I want the church to study this. And come down to what the conclusions are. They will, it’s just a matter of when. Alright, Ryan. And then Ryan, Ryan must leak the study *chuckles* Yeah, that’s right, Ryan will leak the study. Ryan, give us a quick summary, we’re out of time. Yeah, okay, I think everyone here has done a great job putting their flavor on the slides. I have probably done a little bit more of my personal opinion than I like to when representing Mormon Leaks. I just want to say that I’m extremely proud of our team at Mormon Leaks. And the hard work we’ve put in for the past two months to be able to have discussions like this. And I am grateful for the people, the many sources that we have like the person who was willing to share that with is so we can have discussions because they are important to have no matter what side you land on. I’m sure there will be active Mormons who will have no problem with the slides show and are going to agree with all of the bubbles and that is fine. We just want the conversation to be had. Beautiful. And thank you for having us on this podcast John. Thanks Ryan. Alright, Lindsay, you have the last word. Lindsay’s gone. No she’s not. Un-mute yourself Lindsay. Uhm, You know, last week I sat across the dinner table from a man and his daughter. And the daughter showed me on her inner thigh she had carved the word wrong into her skin. When she was worried about her worth in the church and feeling guilt. John and Gina and I and people like us hear these stories every single week. Every single week people come to us and I’m sitting here hearing this conversation and I think I’m just sad thinking about that now because I think Wow, the problems that the people in the church are dealing with are not church history. Church history is painful when you find out about it but those aren’t the issues you ned help with. We came to the church, we came to God needing help and to me it’s not that hard. It’s like brethren, if you want to help just infuse more love, more grace, and more empty into the bureaucracy you’ve created. To me, I feel bad for them. I feel bad for us, and I feel it’s so misguided, so hollow and empty. They have such a good position to help people that need them and people need them and they trust them. And to me, I feel like they are not being good stewards of that trust and so it just makes me feel sad. Gina:Yeah, here here Alright, well I love each and every one of you. I think it’s been a fantastic conversation. I’ll thank each of you. Ryan McKnight, keep going with Mormon Leaks, thank you. Gina Colvin, you’re brilliant, please keep up A Thoughtful Faith, and KiwiMormon, and all the great things you’re doing. Lindsay Hansen Park, Sunstone is a treasure you’ve brought it back from a not so healthy place and it’s thriving and it’s because you’re amazing and all the people that help you. So keep it up. Support Stonestone. John Hamer, church of Christ, you’re my hero as are you so please keep up the great work you’re doing. Please come to Sunstone Toronto. In May I think it is, uhm, uhh April, April it is, I’m so sorry. Sunstone, Sunstone in Toronto in April? Please come. And uhm, Jessie Stay thank you so much it’s always good to have you. You guys were awesome. Uh, please comment on, e-amil us at [email protected] Thanks everyone that supports the open stories foundation and makes this possible. We love you guys. Uhm, More soon! So Take care and again thanks panelists for joining us, you guys are amazing. Thanks John! Alright, see you later, take care guys. See you later Alright

89 thoughts on “Mormon Stories #700: How the LDS Quorum of Apostles Think – Enemies list and Area Business Weekends

  1. 1st ! ! !

    Just excited and happy to be here.

    Mel Brooks as the "Gov" in the movie Blasing Saddles.

  2. Nothing cultural or anything led me out of Mormonism. The Bible led me out of Mormonism. There is clearly one God (Deut. 6:4), not 3 separate Gods (as Joseph Smith taught). He has been eternally God (Psalm 90:2, Isaiah 44:6, Isaiah 41:4), meaning He wasn't born a man and became a god. There are also no other gods formed before Him nor will there be after Him (Isaiah 43:10), thus Mormons can never become Gods. The entire Mormon gospel is entirely antibiblical. I came to the true Jesus Christ of the Bible and have never been more happy.

  3. Thank you Dr. Dehlin.
    Once again you are the voice for so many of us who have been devastated by the lie's
    of the Mormon "Organization".

  4. Congratulations John for having your own Bubble, I am so proud of your courage and all that you do to support those leaving the Church/Organisation. My love goes out to all of you xo

  5. I don't buy Fiona Givens' claim that Joseph Feilding Smith withheld important historical truths from us because he was traumatized by the death of Grandfather Hyrum. He willingly engaged in a conspiracy to make the church look good and "chosen" because it was his (and his family's) whole life and they could not grow it if they allowed the truth to get out.

  6. WOW. You have no idea what impact this information has on a church member from Ecuador. We in Ecuador (developing society) have basically 6 books to draw information from and nothing more relevant. So, thank you for your work, wish I could translate this or somehow make this more available for Spanish speaking mormons.

  7. You must be doing something right John if you are on their "list" even my priest has heard of you….we are not LDS. Good on you!

  8. Gina Colvin's comments at the time of the leaked videos that Mormon leaders were exposed as "intellectually impoverished" pretty much sums it up the bubble chart.

  9. would be interesting to do another version of this panel where if you were the church, what you would suggest to resolve these issues.

  10. Lindsay seems to confuse conservative members' opposition to illegal immigration with how they would feel about the mission of the Church to assist the needy. I'm definitely a conservative who supports legal immigration, but I'd never have an issue with not basing our compassion on someone's legal status (quite the opposite — I'd have real issues with refusing assistance based on whether they were in the U.S. legally or not).

  11. I'd prefer if the LDS leaders are going to speak about (or against) something, that they drop the vague references and come right out and tell us who or what they are talking about.

    From his April 1989 conference address about "alternative voices", to the Boise Rescue, Oaks makes a habit of talking about things unfamiliar to most of his audience. Without anything specific that someone could google to find out just what he is talking about, all this stands to do is create confusion.

    I can understand, though, why some might be uneasy with naming people's names. These leaders have a large audience, a few of whom might be unstable.

  12. I'm with Lindsay and the agreements… It's just "silly" little rules or policy to keep secret.  The more and more it seems that the church I loved and lived by is now being ran by Monty Python writers/actors.

  13. I don't think I've ever seen more talk and analysis over so little… I usually enjoy these videos but this was a waste of my time – there was no there there.

  14. I was made to sweep the Parking lot to get food because my money for food went to tithing.  you know public view to have everyone me having to do a service project.

  15. Next time you attend your ward, be aware of who is being worshipped. You will find that Joseph Smith and the current president are FAR more important than Jesus Christ. He's just the guy in the picture with little kids that is next to every primary room.

  16. Actually I am not surprised that John Dehlin gets his own "bubble". Mormon Stories is a key player in Mormons transitioning from orthodox faith to other beliefs, some leave the church, some form more modern beliefs. All of that is not in the interest of the Church Hierarchy. Consequently, it is not surprising that they deem Dr. Dehlin as an enemy of the traditional church. As the church hierarchy mainly works using social pressure, excommunicating Dr. Dehlin was the logical consequence to basically block believing members from visiting this podcast and learning about the true history of the church and the social issues it causes for non-conforming members.

  17. The Book of Mormon aka Joseph's Myth is made up of:
    – scriptures plagiarized from the Bible
    – writings plagiarized from Solomon Spalding's book called Manuscript Found
    – fictional writings from Joseph Smith based upon Egyptian papyri.

    The Book of Mormon is the most CORRECTED book on this earth!!
    Mormons are the most deceived church upon the earth.

  18. They're naming dangerous names? Sorry, I guess I jumped a layer. I didn't hear them mention Bertrand Russell or Robert G. Ingersoll, or even Richard Dawkins!

  19. I'm an orange bubble sort of fellow. Should I tell my bishop that I'm now an atheist and Christ mythicist? My first instinct is that I'd best keep that on the down-low.

  20. Information is what it is, it's out there and available. When all is said and done each person is responsible for what they say and do. The Church should be held accountable for naming individuals as "enemies" of the Church. That could incite violence and become a legal issue.

  21. These "leaks" are pretty cool, its nice to see what's happening behind closed doors. You say its not to hurt or destroy Mormonism but the truth be told that it is your essential goal, it seems like you are hoping something dodgy but yet you've found nothing.

  22. I don't really want to listen to people who believe in the bible talk about what they don't like about the mormon church. you give a pass on all the crap in the bible and you think mormons are crazy?

  23. As a business corporation masked as church, is no surprise that the influence of the republic party is into the agenda to rule donations to look like better. So any way all of you are far away of de gospel and JesuChrist's way he teach his apostles.

  24. fundamental Mormon doctrine is to stay tied with the Antichrist, why? Just. Smith was a liar and material man, plus practicing poligamy was far from JesuChrist's teachens. Did his apostles the same? that's a pite you ignore the real gospels.

  25. I noticed that the diagram states the reasons people drift away from the "Gospel", not the church. To understand the intention of the brethren you need to differentiate between the two. To think that these men (the leaders of the church) are not in touch with the issues that face our current generation is an underestimation and misrepresentation of the facts to say the least. The negative attitudes displayed in this video against the Lords anointed especially by the sexist feminazi New Zealander show that you people are short sighted in vision. To think that the responsibility of building the Lords Kingdom on Earth in preparation to the second coming should be shouldered by a handful of "men in suits" while you sit back and scorn another's perceived weaknesses is exactly the type of spirit exhibited by that wicked one.

  26. 51: "Not meeting peoples needs…" aaahhh…that's what must have happened to the original church and why there was a "falling away". It wasn't because of 'rejecting' the apostles & sound doctrine, but because they just weren't meeting the needs of people who felt stifled by it. The need to progress and modernize [popularize] the basic ideas into what's comfortable for the masses – that's what killed the original Christian church as well as what caused all prior apostasies. Every time a new dispensation is delivered, people soon enough "outgrow" it and find their needs not being met, so…..naturally.

  27. Regardless of what these people say and purport to be, they are all actively against the church and its leaders. If you are, then be that way, and admit it and come out and say it, but don't play this I'm a more enlightened Mormon shtick. Its like Limbaugh and Hannity & Beck; they all are very conservative but the say they are whereas the main stream media who are just as left, all profess that are center and that is far worse because its a deliberate deception.

  28. I got a Flash from my Higher self when Ryan was talking about the Children of the Church Officials not receiving aid from the church after age 24… (8)x(3) = 24 (888). Also there is a TERRIBLE revelation that has been given to regarding the fact that the Native American "Fire Prophecy's" have been Raped by the Mormon Church.

  29. You folks are very driven to negativity, and feeling superiority over others. So Mormonism is not for you get a life and move on. Your negativity isn't Christian grow up and move on….

  30. Man how times change. In the old days, Joseph Smith and Brigham Young would just send Porter Rockwell to sneak in where all of these people lived and shoot them in the face while they were sleeping. Now I guess the best they can do is making sure these people have fatal "accidents".

  31. Joseph Smith was a pedophile who killed two people in his last moments on this earth…True story…

  32. I was firmly on the "far left" of the chart, which is what eventually led me out of the church following the November 2015 exclusionary policy, as has been the case for many. But after this discussion, I have far more empathy for the people on the far right. I may disagree with how they see the world, but when you think about it they're just following Mormon teachings to their logical conclusions and rightly realizing that the LDS church doesn't deliver on its promises. It puts me in the mind I had on my mission when at times I would wonder why the scriptural type miracles I was promised just weren't happening. Mormonism's uniqueness is supposed to be tje claim that the heavens are open again, after all. I feel even more sorry for these far right folks whe you consider that as they turn to the Denver Snuffer's of the world (i.e. more charlatans), those people will inevitably fail to deliver on their promises, as well. Secularism is the way to go, IMO. Anyway, great video, and I hope all the participants here keep up their great work.

  33. It is my goal to some day get my own bubble on that chart. An enemy of LDS is a servant of God's.

  34. 47:5r
    You are asking a bunch o questions on how this was created, etc and seem frustrated the church does not give you that information.


    You are criticizing the scope of this document but you know NOTHING about it. Your comments are worthless and pathetic based on a STOLEN document about which you know nothing.

  35. Do you ever talk about the believing-but-realistic LDS? Those of us who believe the Church is the real thing but gently try to resist the authoritarian-blinders model? I'm that odd convert who makes unorthodox comments in Sunday School and Priesthood; later a few people tell me how much they like what I said, but I understand that they wouldn't say such things themselves. We have a story too.

  36. The church is not the same as when my wife and I joined.
    1) No more Temple Pageant (Oakland Temple).
    2) No more "Know your Religion" seminars.
    3) No more Activities Committees.
    4) No more sense of community.
    The LDS church looks and feels like a corporate downsizing. It's not the safe and sane environment as it was years ago.

  37. The leaders are trying to lead a Church in the 21st century but with 19th century rules. These old men are out of touch. They don't know or care why people are leaving. They have these secret meetings with "experts" who know nothing about what they are talking. They just are YES MEN to the Church leaders.  They concern themselves with things which have nothing to do with Christ or a Christ-like life. The problem is they are TOO OLD. It's like a corporation. You start out in the mailroom and eventually you might become the CEO. A Bishop, never becomes an apostle. I know some people who work at the Church Office Bldg and you aren't even barely scratching the surface. If you knew why Elder Hamula was ex'd your head would probably explode….

  38. This is a church with an addiction to stats so I'm guessing that those stats do exist but getting access might be a different matter. I'm not pointing to a conspiracy type of perspective rather that folks often think "that you only need this info if you need it."

  39. I love how you guys take everything that they are addressing out of context and share only pieces of the truth. To be a disciple if Christ and follow his gospel there has to be a standard to work toward. A religion that doesn't require some sort of Sacrifice and commitment to be better will never help us to reach the full potential that our Heavenly Father knows we are capable of. They are not secretive about the issues in the bubbles. I have seen Christ and I am not going to be excommunicated for it or sharing it when I feel inspired to do so. The issue with apostates is when they claim that because they have seen Christ that somehow they can receive revelation for everyone and are a prophet, it's not true-they are false prophets. There has to be order. I know the First Presidency and Quorum of Twelve are called of God-they are the only true prophets. Someday you will know the truth and realize the error of your ways. You can't judge the gospel by imperfect men. The prophets are the most kind and considerate people I have ever known-I don't know where you get your stories from to judge the brethren so harshly. Like I said before. You have a very biased one sided view of things based on only partial truths. Someday you will know the truth. I know the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the only church with the whole truth and have the ability to receive more truth because of priesthood keys they have received to be the only ones authorized to receive continuing revelation. I know it to be true independent of any one else. You believe what you want to believe, but there are many things I know are true and you can know too.

  40. They don't need to interview ex Mormons to see why we're leaving – we all tell our stories online. That's where they get their data.

  41. I can't believe how much time you people spend on your little exposes of Mormon dirty laundry. Lol.

  42. To be fair, it seems to me that the church must have done some kind of study to come up with the size of the bubbles. I found the sizes interesting as they were different than I would have expected.

  43. As an LDS Church, full tithe payer, return missionary, multiple college degree holder, Mexican-American, Texan born, member, I could care less about members who fall away for whatever reason. Free agency is the best gift we were given from the moment we were born into this world. If not the LDS church, then what church has all the TRUTH among the hundreds of churches in current existence. Why would I leave the LDS church, when I would be looking of 100's of options as to which church to join next? I would just stay home and mind my own business about "religion." And by the way, I do have many questions about the LDS church. But, none of you have the answers I'm looking for. I wish you did…but you don't.

  44. Lindsay is so damn typical Utah naive, asking the other “Christian” guy if secret administration meetings take place at other churches. Like yes if it’s a religion with a congregation it’s going to have the fucking secret administration meetings but also of course the guy is going to say no he doesn’t have those.

  45. The leaders ask the church members to have at least one year food storage . If you ask any joe shmo off the street ,non LDS, if having a year food storage is considered prepping and preparing he would say "YES". So essentially all church members are asked by the leaders to be " preppers" . lol I highly doubt a leader would say what was being discussed that they are a threat given what the church leaders ask of their members . Let's also not forget all the canneries . What I am hearing is just a lot of gossip and that old fun game called "telephone ".

  46. The biggest problem in the LDS Church leadership is dementia most of the profits of the last hundred years had dementia

  47. So is Ezekiel 37: 15- 20 false? If the Book of Mormon isn't the 'stick of Joseph/Ephraim' that is suppose become one with the Bible (stick of Judah), and is to be revealed before the tribulations then where is it?

  48. Pentecostals and charismatics take the multiple prophets/ revelation view and do pretty well with it. No centralized authority but about half a billion adherents. They also have some pretty well documented miracle healings. Wonder what would have happened if Morning had gone that route. BTW, the western world is not the majority of humanity.

  49. I am involved in Emergency Management. I am not a doomsday prepper, yet I think everyone that I speak to at the local church level, treat me like an outcast and I don't know what I am talking about when it comes to emergency preparedness. I do disaster/emergency drills all around the country. I have a ton of experience, but I am treated like I have no clue. That's okay. When the event happens, I can't just walk away, but I am going to tell them, "I told you so".

  50. Explain this please….
    Can't wait for you're reply….
    I've never got an answer………
    You never mock anybody. What a load of S–t……

  51. The mormon church runs exactly like a Cocaine Cartel, end customers of the cartel are addicted to a substance, but end customers in mormonism are addicted to having all the answers about life and the universe and basically not having to do any of their own thinking. The mormon Prophet is nothing more than a godfather of a cartel selling ideas or made up answers, both drugs and mormonism are used as tools as some form of escape. Pablo Escobar has got nothing on Joseph smith.

  52. Every Christian who is a chaste person has had a more authentic experience in Jesus than Joseph Smith. The reason he had to embellish his story so much with " golden plates" and magic genies like Moroni was because Jesus wasn't real enough to him to make him abandon adultery. He violated the Book of Mormon when he broke his own wife's tender heart by marriage with other women and girls. He enjoyed ruining the life of these girls by not affording them opportunity to grow up any marry a man who loves her exclusivity as Christ's early church was commanded to do.

  53. It was inevitable that as people were not able to maintain the myth of the Latter Day Prophet Joseph Smith, that another charismatic leader would arise. People who reject Jesus in favor of a modern prophet will always need a new prophet to come along after the memory of the prophet of former centuries has been tarnished.
    For people of the nineteenth century, Jesus was just too far in the past for them to know without submitting themselves to the discipline of the Holy Spirit as New Testament believers.
    Joseph Smith is suffering the same fate, but being a mere human, no one can know him as we can know Jesus.

  54. The senior leadership of the church are either to old or to disconnected with the relevant issues that they are trying to address. The bleeding wound of apostasy will continue to increase in size and damage till the church bleeds itself out.

  55. Your stuff is intreasting, I'd listen to more but can't spend 1 to 1 1/2 hours daily or even weekly listening, I have a job and family.

  56. "Theists created the rockets that carried men to the moon and the reflecting telescope on board the Hubble Space Platform; Atheists created Marxist dictators who murdered 100 million people in the 20th century."  Theists: NASA Director and rocket scientist Wernher von Braun.  Inventor of the Reflecting Telescope and physicist, mathematician and scientist Sir Isaac Newton.  Atheists: Mass murderers Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and other Marxist atheist dictators.

  57. Interesting that the general authorities title their chart " reasons people fall away from the gospel" The gospel of Jesus Christ, and the Mormon Corp are two very different things. I found the true gospel of The real Jesus Christ of the Holy Bible after leaving Mormonism (due to all of the lies and conflicting doctrines within Mormonism).
    Thanks John for helping people tell their stories.
    I didn't fall away. Lol
    I was awakened!

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