How a Totalitarian State is Actually Formed | Jocko Podcast & Jordan B Peterson

How a Totalitarian State is Actually Formed | Jocko Podcast & Jordan B Peterson


Peterson -Podías ver lo mismo con la
descripción de los gulags de Solzhenitsyn porque estaban gestionados por los presos pero pienso que esa es una metáfora realmente buena para los estados totalitarios en general porque nos gusta pensar que un estado totalitario está compuesto
de individuos inocentes oprimidos que están bajo el control de un tirano malvado y que todas las catástrofes vienen desde arriba pero no creo que eso sea verdad, creo que es una estructura holográfica
en donde la tiranía existe en cada nivel. Existe psicológicamente y existe dentro de la familia y existe dentro de las organizaciones de nivel medio. En Alemania del Este, por ejemplo, una de cada tres personas
era un informante del gobierno. Lo que eso significaba es que si tenías una familia
de seis personas, no podías confiar en dos de ellos y no puedes simplemente decir que eso es una
consecuencia de la estructura de arriba abajo. La tiranía es algo que existe en cada lugar
simultáneamente una vez que se establece. Es fácil para la gente decir cosas como: “Estaba siguiendo órdenes”. No estoy intentando ponerme en una posición en
la que afirmo que si yo estuviese en esa situación, yo no habría seguido las órdenes de la misma manera. Solo Dios lo sabe hasta que te encuentras ahí, eso seguro. Pero lo que eso me hizo fue
centrar mi atención más y más en la necesidad de responsabilidad individual. Pensé que si eran individuos en el análisis definitivo los responsables por los grandes males del s.XX, que creo que es una manera
razonable de conceptualizarlo, entonces podrían ser individuos quienes
podrían ser responsables de cualquier bien que pudiera haber en la humanidad que podría ayudarnos a evitar
esas situaciones en el futuro. Pensé en eso como una alternativa, en cierto sentido, a la falta de creencia nihilista y a la posesión ideológica porque si tu identidad de
grupo está demasiado ajustada, entonces empiezas a actuar como un engranaje en una muchedumbre. Eso es algo muy malo pero si tu identidad de grupo
desaparece completamente, entonces te quedas solo y vacío. Esas son malas alternativas. Estás fastidiado sí o sí. Fue muy difícil entender que podría
haber un tercer camino entre esos dos, no podía ver la existencia de nada porque la gente necesita sistemas
de creencia para poder existir, para mantener estabilidad
psicológica y sociológica también. Pero si las creencias se vuelven demasiado rígidas, entonces se convierten en una
muchedumbre furiosa totalitaria. Quizá lo dejaste marchar porque
no quisiste jugar a ese juego pero entonces te disuelves porque no tienes identidad. Eso tampoco es aceptable. Cuando lo consideré con esa claridad por primera vez fue un golpe duro para mí porque
no podía ver una tercera opción. Pero luego comencé a darme cuenta, y esto era una consecuencia de leer el
tipo de cosas de las que hemos hablado. También de comenzar a entender
la estructura de la mitología y lo que el camino heroico significaba, esencialmente, y eso significó la adopción de responsabilidad
moral suprema como un individuo. Hay una idea en el Nuevo Testamento, que es una idea realmente interesante, es una de estas ideas sin fondo. Digo eso literalmente, podrías estudiarla para siempre y nunca llegar al fondo. La idea es que Cristo es la persona que
carga con los pecados de la humanidad. Eso es redención. Es una idea muy oscura porque lo que significa, hasta donde entiendo, al menos lo que significa psicológicamente, es que cuando lees estas terribles cosas tienes que entender que estás leyendo sobre ti. Si no entiendes que estás leyendo sobre ti, entonces no entiendes las historias. Te colocas en la posición en la que eres
automáticamente la persona buena y que nunca haría algo así. Entonces, estas otras personas
son demonios en cierto sentido. Es muy fácil para la gente realizar esa división pero es una observación horrenda cuando piensas que el Diablo que ves fuera
es el mismo demonio que está dentro y que no sabes qué harías hasta
que estás en una situación así. Y luego es peor porque si miras la evidencia histórica, era gente ordinaria, en cierto sentido, quienes produjeron las catástrofes de la Alemania nazi y la Unión Soviética y la China de Mao. Quizá ellos no lo originaron pero ciertamente tenían la opción de decir
no en diferentes pasos a lo largo del camino y no lo hicieron. Estas horribles cosas suceden de una en una. Hay un libro muy bueno llamado
Aquellos hombres grises que describe la degeneración de una fuerza policial alemana de hombres ordinarios burgueses de clase
media, esencialmente, policías ordinarios, que se criaron antes de las Juventudes Hitlerianas, no fueron adoctrinados siendo jóvenes. Fueron destinados a Polonia a limpiar después de que
los alemanes hubiesen pasado y describe cómo degeneraron en el tipo de gente que sacaban a mujeres desnudas embarazadas en medio del campo y les disparaban en la nuca. Lo que es horrible en cuanto al libro es que el autor, Browning, detalla las etapas en las que esto ocurrió. Por ejemplo, el comandante de esta
unidad les contó a los hombres que tenían que hacer cosas terribles pero que podrían irse a casa si quisieran. Y luego piensas: “Hay una salida” pero si lo piensas detenidamente, piensas: “Son una organización
estrechamente unida cuasimiltar” y uno de los pensamientos
naturales en esa circunstancia sería: “No voy a dejar que mis camaradas
hagan todo el trabajo sucio, eso solo sería cobardía”. Puedes ver que hay un requisito ético
que te mantendría ahí para empezar.. Willink -Estás haciendo lo que acabas de decir que es cargar con este lastre de
actividad pecadora en tus hombros. Si dejas que el resto lo haga, entonces
no estás actuando heroicamente. P -Fue fácil que los hombres fueran atrapados en eso. Cada vez había más órdenes de acciones terribles y cada vez que aceptaron la
orden de hacer una cosa terrible, la probabilidad de que aceptasen
la siguiente orden aumentaba. Lo que también es muy
interesante en cuanto a ese libro, Aquellos hombres grises, no es
que estos hombres no sufrieron. Estaban sufriendo terriblemente, estaban físicamente enfermos, estaban vomitando, estaban destrozándose psicológicamente pero no abandonaron. Ese es un gran libro porque si quieres saber cómo puedes ser atraído
para recorrer un camino terrible, ese es el libro que hay que leer. Es aterrador porque si lo lees adecuadamente, de nuevo, tienes que leerlo como si fueras una
de las personas a quien esto le está sucediendo. No la víctima sino el opresor. También puedes leerlo como la víctima, vale, pero es gente ordinaria quienes participan en
estas cosas y ese es un pensamiento aterrador.

62 thoughts on “How a Totalitarian State is Actually Formed | Jocko Podcast & Jordan B Peterson

  1. If we can conceive of laws that we must obey, we can conceive of laws that we must not obey. The law is not a reason to stop thinking for ourselves, considering what our best paths might be, and taking steps along those paths.

  2. Aside from Dr Peterson of course, every serious young person should be aware of Stanley Milgram and Walter Mischel. The Milgram experiment drives home the point of this video: the capacity for the average person to fully participate in tyranny is much higher than many of us would like to believe. Thanks for keeping the message alive Dr Peterson.

  3. The urge to conform is seductive and charming.
    The camaraderie is often appealing and disarming.
    But darkness, though hidden,
    Will pounce once it's bidden,
    And the results can be quite alarming.

  4. So I assume I’m not wrong in coming to this conclusion, collectivism equals tyranny, individualism equals freedom.

  5. Dr. Peterson, honest question: what do you think is the proper boundary between the individual and the State? Individuals have rights to freedom and bear responsibility for their own integrity, but to what degree are they responsible for the collective? And how can they take responsibility for the good of the collective? is it only through individual development?

  6. It's a very terrifying sign that ppl just recently shouted for JP and his audience to be burned alive. I mean, how much more obvious a sign do people need that there's a strong possibility of things going badly for us? We're at a critical point in which we still have the ability to possibly turn things around.

  7. What a brave and useful teacher! A terrible burden, I imagine. No idea why youngsters get so riled up that they bang on windows and shout horrible things. Must be paid for it.

  8. Finished the book Ordinary Men just about a week ago, it really is worth reading. I think I had it on my list, because he mentioned it somewhere else already.

  9. I like the video but it’s not clear to me that it does what the title says, I see the relation but how does a totalitarian state actually form, apart from one small step at a time?

  10. I have found lately that many young leftist people are living by the same convictions as their parents. This goes against the grain of finding one's own beliefs in life. The parents are hippy anarchists from the sixties & seventies and the kids are young anarchists going to college. I want to tell them to find themselves, quit being a replica of their parents. Things have changed.

  11. Why does the tyrant always have to be evil? … yeah I know it's in the definition but a ruler trying to squash the cancer ( you know? exponentially multiplying useless people ) in his domain can't really be entirely evil … can he/she? ( whoops meant to say "they" 🙂

  12. All these cops who felt a need to stick together and didn't want to individually commit atrocities, had the option to go home as a group. If the Germans had decided that as individuals their job was to convince others in the group, then as groups they would take the moral road, then the atrocities would not have happened.

  13. That tyranny on every level is so true for Vietnamese society and many others still under single party communist control. My parents work for the VNese version of the IRS and I know for a fact that they abuse their power. The system is set up so that you have to. The Vietnamese Prime Minister makes $700 a month officially and all power players are filthy rich from simple corruption.

  14. Why I think trump is a fascist (please respond so a convocation can begin): He’s clearly doing what hitler did through his interaction with the crowd and being the representation of there dark subconscious, the average American doesn’t have to say things like get rid of those evil Mexicans because trump will say it for them and they just have to cheer when he does. During his campaign he threatened to arrest Hillary, you can’t arrest your opponents in democracy. The actual facts are not important to him, he improvises at speeches and exaggerates more than not. He’s got a personality cult, he’s a television star that communicates to the masses through his personal social media account and says things like “I’m the greatest fill in the blank of all time” more than regularly. He’s a militaristic, nationalistic, isolationist.

  15. I am ready for the tyranny, at this point. I am sick of the chaos. I am sick of the hatred for my people and heritage. I am sick of being commanded to tolerate the religion of conquest, Islam. It is probably too late to sue for peace. You should have all spoken up decades ago instead of joining the left in the hunt for bigots. A bit of bloodshed will make our societies serious again. And I don't think it can be stopped.

  16. Pretty sure this is why the military mentions "Foreign and domestic", they have a commitment to the citizens. I wonder just how the military would fracture if turned on the citizens.
    (Of course this is also why the 2A' and free speech exist as well)

  17. I always keep a pen and paper next to me when I watch Mr. Peterson speak ao I can write down the titles of books he mentions and read them myself. Been reading about 10 in total and have not been disappointed one bit.

  18. The tree of liberty must be refreshed, from time to time, with the blood of tyrants and patriots. — Thomas Jefferson

  19. Peterson is WRONG, loyalists don't collaborate out of a sense of moral responsibility, It's a survival mechanism that compels an individual to surrender to a collective that after atrocities are committed sinks into a state of collective psychosis causing paranoia and drives them to group people in to two catagories, those who are with us, and those who are against us. The limbic system overrides the frontal cortex and the individual becomes infected by the collective schizophrenic psychosis.

  20. The first place the Totalitarians start is disparaging and lying about the religion of the people. Mao Hitler Mussolini Pol Pot you name it. Most of what you heard to the contrary you got from the same people who lied to you about Feminism and Social Justice. Religion is goid and natural and vital and the Christian religion is glorious and rational.

  21. To Jordan Peterson, with deep respect and admiration of your achievements and resolve in your life. I was wondering what is the problem with racial self segregating groups, I am not like my compatriots in the alt right. However I would like to see a more structured society or at least a honest conversation about one.

    So to my question, what is your stance on groups that racially divide themselves freely and openly, if the Japanese are capable of having an ethnostate keeping there culture why can't the west?

    We hear time and again that the West has been horrific and inhuman, but nowadays we are heading down the path of destruction, we are just changing targets in my eyes whites are the new victims and minorities are the privileged classes.

  22. This is the first time I've heard this example. Very interesting and sorrowful.
    Humanity has significant pitfalls wired into our heads and hearts.

  23. @1:00 At the prior timestamp, Peterson says "You can't know if you'd be an order-follower until you're put into that situation," and even follows it up with "That's for sure." …But I have to call bullshit on this. There's no chance a Henry David Thoreau, or Ayn Rand, or Stanley Milgram, or person like myself would follow unjust orders. …Because we've thought it through. In fact, many of Milgram's test subjects refused to follow the unjust orders they were given, on the grounds of "Maybe in Soviet Russia, but this is America!" or "I don't have to do anything I don't want to do." …Not everybody is a servile, stupid piece of shit who never bothered to find out about the culture they were living in. …Just MOST people. …And that's really the problem. If you are willing to enforce illegitimate drug laws, gun laws, tax laws, or other "prohibitions" or "regulations"(all of which deny due process of law, and the requirement of a valid, 2-part corpus), then you are EXACTLY the kind of person who would follow unjust orders. You are literally the same type of person as a Nazi, or a Marxist informant(who, by the way, killed vastly more innocent people than the Nazis did). If you are the kind of person who believes leftism is evil, or you hate the wealthy and believe that owning justly-acquired wealth entitles you to inform on someone, or murder them, then you are precisely the same type of "order follower" that you claim (as all SJWs claim) to decry. 31% of people in the Milgram study refused to follow unjust orders. I'd be one of those. …But there's no chance you'd be in the same club if you're willing to say someone's guilty for "speeding on a highway" or "selling drugs." ….Because you haven't thought it through, and you have only a superficial understanding of legitimate governance, and what it means to be a decent human being.

    …And this describes every single Trump and Hillary voter, and most Johnson-Weld voters. …The virtuous means nothing to such people, or they'd have all been activist libertarians who would have flooded into the 2016 Libertarian Party convention to vote for John McAfee and Larry Sharpe.

  24. After WWII, the Christian evangelical/Bible-church people in Germany had to somehow bring a rapproachment between collaborator churches and the suffering non-collaborator churches. In one such conversation as they sought to work through these relationship fractures, a Christian who was in the German (Nazi) police force was conflicted, because to move up the professional ladder would require that he DANCE, as in ballroom dancing, which was forbidden, along with drinking and playing cards and going to movies. His conscience was sensitive to the old taboos, but the new nazi-isms were things he wasn't prepared for ahead of time, things that he would have to resist.

  25. I dont know where to post this,, or if there is any use doing it. But,, Jordan Peterson would please run for public office here in Canada. Seriously,, Conservatives dont seem to be able to field candidates with any credibility. I know its a lot to ask, But im asking, Please JP.

  26. I greatly praise JP for doing these styles of podcasts because it completely eliminates all the noise that is created in edited media. Sure, ads from YouTube do what you gotta do, but that's granted and can easily be ignored. Peterson doing interviews with edited media drives me crazy, HOWEVER, I absolutely love the idea I receive from his doing so (because knowing JP the way I do and the way I have since I've discovered his existence) of him possibly silently trolling his non-supporters. His non-supporters can be found viewing his edited exposure, which exposes THEIR ignorance and the absolute tyrant, fearful, and angry behavior these people have. He's exposing them by simply just being present! It's fucking amazing!!

  27. Another factor is that when people are in groups they tend to feel invincible and faceless. They feel as if they as an individual did not do something as much as the group including themselves did something. This is especially evident in situations such as protests and riots. People feel power in numbers which can drive them to do things they wouldn’t do alone as an individual.

  28. Corporations are the modern day natzi germany, they control every aspect of your life and most people aren't even conscious of it. constantly molding you into a mindless consumer, dictating what you can and cannot talk about, slowly but surely removing your individuality and feeling of being an actual adult.

  29. Jordan, that's extremely important. Tnx, socialism/ postsocialism is undertheorised, especially in the West, and you put it on table…in that special way/that standard you usually do. l can't discuss it here, as it's a whole dissertation/s, …u too:)).. what a pity..(that's we do when l find u, cz u have to find me a husband!!), but for the reason that u will be able to take my brief point in it's narrow since, without jumping into conclusions on where l stand on totalitarianism and it's actual specific manifestations, I just mention this….people in the So called Soviet Union… wrong term…especially in some Republics..wrong term… would have clashes with someone from the Eastern Germany, for ex., as their individual identity was in conflict with the collective totalitarian identity. Here two points: collective individualistic identity vs. the collective identity of the herd (the way l see, that's where u often implicitly stand on this matter). SECOND: depends what the idea of a specific totalitarian regime is founded on plus the autonomy of previously existing local structures (not structures in a postmod. sence..haha). This YES automatically implies the autonomy of the notion of totalitarianism, and that's why l so agree it can be discussed in generalized terms. It's just …it needs to be discussed..in general and in details:))))

  30. These two quotes always are on my mind when I watch Jordan Peterson:“A rational anarchist believes that concepts such as ‘state’ and ‘society’ and ‘government’ have no existence save as physically exemplified in the acts of self-responsible individuals. He believes that it is impossible to shift blame, share blame, distribute blame… as blame, guilt, responsibility are matters taking place inside human beings singly and nowhere else. But being rational, he knows that not all individuals hold his evaluations, so he tries to live perfectly in an imperfect world…aware that his effort will be less than perfect yet undismayed by self-knowledge of self-failure.

    “My point is that one person is responsible. Always. In terms of morals there is no such thing as ‘state.’ Just men. Individuals. Each responsible for his own acts.”  ― Robert A. Heinlein, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress“I will accept any rules that you feel necessary to your freedom. I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.”  ― Robert A. Heinlein, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress

  31. I have been reading about South Africa. From what I understand, the white people there fought for, bought or cut deals with the natives for large amount of land. They used the land to farm and build wealth. There are black locals who are homeless/jobless on an epidemic rate. The economy is down and people are blaming the rich. There was a 60 year old woman tortured with a power drill to the kneecaps because she was white and had a house. The NEWSPAPERS had statements about how few whites there were and if people wanted they could kill them all in 2 weeks. The entitlement mentality, victim-hood mentality and hatred for the rich sets a stage but the one sided media and the culture that says "if you are angry you have a right to commit violence" is what has caused this. When I hear about how the media/celebs is posting one sided stories and saying a kid has a punch-able face it seems like a recipe for disaster. I wouldn't blame the rich if they leave the country – not sure where they would go – but things don't look good.
    Am I reading into this too much – I don't mean to seem like I'm overreacting but how lightly do you take a culture that ignores drilling an old woman's knees?

  32. Jordan's a fukn whore for corporate interest. That's his smarts… SUCK THEIR DICK!!! Any whore can take to their knees and find a safe place.

  33. Juden B Peterstein is a UN employee and a gatekeeper to the truth, don't fall for it. Collectivism for (((me))) but not for thee. He's a good stepping stone away from victim mentality and taking responsibility for your life but needs discarding beyond that. As individuals we are prey to the wolves that encircle us, each believing we're special and that our needs and opinions matter when the crunch comes, fuck this super rich centre leftist who was suddenly thrust upon us by grabbing at the low hanging fruit of trans pronouns.

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