10 Books That Will Change How You Lead | The Seeking Wisdom Podcast

10 Books That Will Change How You Lead | The Seeking Wisdom Podcast


(hip hop music) – DC, bring us in. – All right, and we’re back. I am pumped up, wired up. We have Maggie here. – What’s up? – Maggie “The Truth” Crowley. – I like that, that works. – How good is that? – I’ll take it. – She is the truth. – She is the truth, I
just came up with that. Maggie is the host of the Build podcast, which you should subscribe to, and leave five stars. Six stars is exclusively
for Seeking Wisdom. – I’ll take five all day. – Speaking of six stars, DG
gave his annual presentation at the Harvard Business School, where Maggie is a graduate. He’s been rumored to have
won the best speaker award multiple years in a row. – One marketing lesson I’ve learned is, if you create the award,
you can win it every year. – [DC] Consecutive. – However, this was
the first year, though, I didn’t know you guys
were gonna be there today, and then, when I was in the class– – You heard the applause. (DG imitates applause) – No, but I felt the force. I knew something was off. – Feedback was coming. – I was like, “I gotta make
sure I don’t say anything.” I knew the presence. Then, sure enough, before the intro, Tom Eisenmann, he said– – Professor, Professor Tom. – I didn’t know, do I call
him Doctor, Professor. I call him Tom. He said that you guys were down the hall, which I didn’t know, in
a different building, doing the first Drift case. The Drift case is now officially at HBS. Maggie and I had a nice
off-the-record conversation about HBS earlier, and it was cool. It was actually a good learning lesson because the things that we talked about, the things that seem obvious often aren’t. I said to Maggie, it’s not a HBS thing. I have this fear almost any time I speak or present something, I’m like, “I don’t have any secrets. “I’m gonna tell you something.” Always, I’m worried
people are gonna be like, “Yeah, dude, it’s obvious.” Maggie was agreeing. – What I loved about our format was, it was a live case style, so Mark Roberge was leading it on my side, and Julianne Frank was
leading it on the other side with Elias in that class
and me in this class. What was cool about it was
that we would pose a question, then everyone would
vote, interactive voting, and then we would discuss, we’d give four fake scenarios
or five fake scenarios, they would vote which one
they thought we had chosen, and then I would explain the real choice and why I made that choice. Every time, everyone voted
for the other choices. Our choices were never the
ones that were voted for. One of the choices, which was, “How will you commission
the first salesperson?” got zero votes, the actual choice. – [DG] What were the options? – The options, the first option was 50/50, which is 50% variable, 50% fixed, which is the most common. The second was an 80/20 but on revenue. The C, which was the correct
answer, was no variable. The third was 80/20, variable
only on logos, not revenue. Most people chose D, which is logical. All the choices that
everyone voted for the most were the most logical, but
also the wrong choices. – Which is awesome because, also, the context of that, though, is like, that first sales hire
here was great for us, might not be great for somebody else. – [DC] Exactly, they’ve
learned a lesson on stage. – He could code, he
was writing JavaScript, fixing the wifi, and doing sales. That’s a different profile. Anyway, before we talk about what we’re gonna talk about today, what’s the word on Build these days? – I got a couple of good ones coming up. I have an expert in
conversation design talking about how to bring voice to your products. I also have the founder of Superhuman on product-market fit,
recommendation from DC, on how you measure that, and
when MPS does make sense. Then I’m thinking about one on how to use video to 10x
your product team feedback. – [DC] Wow, that’s pretty good. – Going deep in the current How Drift Build Products section. – That’s awesome. If, for those two or
three people out there on the internet who have
not listened to Build yet, hit them with some of the names of some of the companies
that you’ve had on so far. – We’ve had Christina Wodtke, who might be getting an
appearance in this show. – [DC] She was at LinkedIn, right? – Yeah, LinkedIn, Zynga,
now professor at Stanford. We have just had Craig Daniel, our VP of products here at Drift. – Haven’t heard that one yet, Craig. – You’ve never listened to that one? – No, not yet. I’ll listen to it today. – It was a good one. – Hold on, in my notes about Christina, she also redesigned MySpace
and their profile pages. – Yeah, she’s legit. – That’s cool. – That’s of DG’s era. – Oh yeah, top eight. – Yeah, MySpace. – Get in the top eight. – Who else have you had on? – Yeah, go. – [DC] Amplitude? – Yep, some people from Amplitude, a person from Atlassian, we’ve
had someone from Confluence, we’ve had people from, of course, I can’t remember all of the other ones. – [DC] Pluralsight. – Pluralsight, yep, all three authors of the Product Leadership book. – Wow, it’s pretty good podcast. You should go listen to it. It’s one of my favorites. Actually, I like Maggie’s
podcast better than this one. – Yeah, ’cause it’s more focused. If you don’t get what you want out of us from general
stuff, go to Maggie. If you’re a product person,
if you like building, if you like design, product management, engineering, all that stuff,
that is your show for sure. – Absolutely. – What have you learned
doing this show, by the way? Have you changed? – I’ve learned a ton, yes, absolutely. I think the biggest thing
that I’ve learned is that, what we were talking about before, is that even things that
you’d think were obvious are not obvious, and people are doing the simplest, clearest things, but they’re actually doing them, and they’re the ones that are successful. The people who are just talking about it don’t end up being as successful. – It’s also a secret
little hack, which is, if you have a podcast,
and you have guests on, it’s like your own learning hack. You are learning these things, and then you get to do your own show, and listen, and learn. It’s amazing. – After almost every one, we end the podcast, and then I’m like, “All right, so I have these
three things I’m working on. “How would you approach them? “What would you do?” – That’s awesome. That almost sounds like, that should be a Seeking
Wisdom T-shirt there, the obvious is not obvious,
something like that. – What you were talking about with the kids at HBS was,
the questions I was asking when I was reviewing
their business plans were, “Did you Google it? “How do I know if someone’s gonna pay? “Did you ask them to pay?” Nope. – [DC and DG] Okay. – All right then, here we go, here we go. – Today, we’re gonna talk about, there’s a great article. We do a lot of book reviews on this show, and we dug into all the authors, and for whatever reason, all the authors of those business books
often tend to be dudes. There was actually a great article in Inc. a couple weeks ago by the managing editor at Inc. His name is Jeff Haden. It was 60 Great Business
And Leadership Books All Written By Women. We thought we would pick off eight to 10 of the best books
that we read from this, and talk about, and
give people a little bit of a hit list of books beyond what we always
talk about on the show. Cool? – Super cool. – Okay. DC. – I’m ready. – You’re ready. Number one, Radical Focus
by Christina Wodtke. – Wodtke. – Wodtke, you know her. – Yes. – Okay, she’s done everything, lecturer in HTI at
Stanfard, worked with Yahoo, New York Times on improving their website. How did you– She created the LinkedIn news feed, led a redesign of MySpace, and led design of the Zynga platform. That’s one of DC’s
favorites out of this list. I know that is now one
of your favorite people. Second one is Powerful by Patty McCord. – What did you think of the book? We skipped the book. – Sorry. – Radical Focus. – I love the book because it’s not only how to use goals and
OKRs, but she has a story in the first have that teaches you exactly how one might use those goals in real life when you’re actually working. – Yeah, she uses the Patrick Lencioni, I always say his name wrong,
but kind of parable style, which she mentioned on the podcast, of teaching by telling stories. That book is great. I can still remember the story, and the whole thing that they went through in a way that I would not
be able to remember it if it was just facts, facts, facts, facts. – Another one, Powerful by
the real homie Patty McCord. – Still one of our most
popular podcasts ever. – That one was one of my favorites. – It was amazing, and I think, Patty, if you don’t know, 14
years, she was head of talent and people at Netflix. I pulled two Patty McCord quotes because this says
everything you need to know about who Patty is in the book. This is from her bio. “Patty believes people come to work “as fully formed adults with a desire “to make an impact and
be proud of what they do. “She’s on a mission to spread the word “that we can do this differently.” There’s one key word in
that paragraph, adults, because that’s the whole book, and that’s her whole mantra,
if you listen to that podcast. – It’s a great book, highly recommended. We have that in our book club, but I would recommend, the book is 50%. You have to watch, listen to her. Listen to her on the podcast. Episode will be linked below. Amazing, still fan favorite. I think it’s number one
podcast we’ve ever done, not because of us, but because of Patty. Then go search on YouTube, and try to find some
talks that she’s given. I mean, she is just an amazing speaker. It comes through more than that book does. – Because you want to talk to her. – She’s real. – She doesn’t seem corporate, she doesn’t seem like who you’d think of as a seasoned HR exec. – Yeah, the first time
I met her years ago, I was fascinated, ’cause I was like, “How does she say all this stuff, “and everyone’s like, ‘Yes.'” I’m like, if I said all this stuff, people would throw stuff at me. I’m like, I don’t know how she can say it in such a great way, and
that she really resonates and can connect with people. – She’s awesome. – Note to self, connect with people. – Third one is Meaningful
by Bernadette Jiwa. You put me on her. Have you read any of her stuff? – I haven’t.
– I think it’d be right up your alley. We gotta break you off on one of these.
– We have a bunch of her books in the lobby here. It doesn’t help you if
you’re listening to this unless you come to Drift,
you can come in our lobby and get some of Bernadette’s books. She’s from New Zealand. Amazing early homie of
Seeking Wisdom and Drift. She’s written a bunch of books, Marketing, Meaningful, I can’t
remember all these books. – [DG] It was like,
Marketing: A Love Story was another one that we read. – She’s almost, like, in the
beginning of starting Drift, she was almost like our muse. What she was saying was exactly the same, in a much more eloquent
way, what we were thinking. She really put that together,
so we love her work. Again, she’s a speaker. She spoke at TED down
in New Zealand, TEDx, and listen to her stuff,
but her writing’s amazing. First time I picked up a book from her, the intro was written by Seth Godin. – Okay, this is the
point I was gonna make. This is a little hack that I found, which is, Seth Godin, if you’ve ever read or listened to any of his stuff, she’s one of the two or three people that he plugs over, and over, and over. There’s always, if you
really want to learn, you want to find the great people who are making these spaces, if you go a couple levels deeper, you got somebody in product
that you love, or whatever. I love Seth Godin. If you find out who’s
influencing Seth Godin, and then go read those
books, that’s how, I think, DC probably came across Bernadette Jiwa. – Yeah, that’s how I found her. That’s one of my favorite little hacks, if you want to call it that, or tricks, it is to find the people that the people that you look towards are always recommending. What’s the one or two names? Warren Buffett has this further hack, which is, he asked
people, when he’s trying to understand an industry, he’ll find the top people
in any given industry. Let’s just say it’s, I don’t
know what, microphones, microphones, and he’ll go to them, meet with them, and he
used to do this a lot early in his career, and say, “If you had to bet all of your savings “to take care of your family forever “while you’re gone, what’s the one company “you would bet on and why, “and who’s the leader in that company “who you would bet on and why?” He would ask them that. He would basically frame it
as, you have to make a bet. Who is the bet? It can’t be your company. Which one would you bet on? Then he would go around
the entire industry, and then end up feeling
like he would learn more than any one of those people because he was getting
a frame to understand who was the best in the industry, and why, and what were the holes. – I’ve seen screenshots from DC of the credits page of a book, like page 317, the back page, it’s all the footnotes. He’s like, buy all those books. – Who’s been footnoted the most? Who are they referencing all the time? Then I try to find all, of those people, who are the ones that are
common, patterns there, and those are the ones
I’m gonna go look for, the teacher of the teachers. – Another one on this list, Radical Candor by Kim Scott, which is, Kim led AdSense YouTube and DoubleClick at Google. Then she joined Apple and built
out all of their training. She has been CEO coach
at Dropbox, Qualtrics, Twitter, another book
that we read at Drift. – Yeah, I feel like that’s someone you should have on your podcast. – Kim? I’d love to have her. – Kim Scott, if you’re
listening, the homie Kim. She says one of her favorite T-shirts is a Drift T-shirt we sent her. Anyway, Kim Scott, homie, great book. This is a fantastic book, and it’s right up the alley. It’s not about OKRs, but
it’s in the same vein as Christina’s book, so
definitely someone who, Maggie, I could see you guys mind meld. – It’s all about feedback, this book. – Always, in all aspects. – Maggie’s like, “Feedback?” – Surprise podcast. – I love that. He loves it, anticipating
feedback, that’s the G. She has this concept in there
that she calls radical candor. I was like, “Yes, I love radical candor.” – What did she say? – I want radical candor. – She said, “Radical candor
is not about schmoozing, “nor is it about endless extroversion “that exhausts the
introverts on your team, “or wears you out if you
happen to be an introvert. “It’s not about getting
drunk, or driving go-karts, “or playing laser tag.” She said, “The way you ask for criticism “and react when you get it goes a long way “towards building trust or destroying it.” – Do you see why she has my heart? – Yes. This is a great book. If you’re a manager, this is a must-read. I think it changes the way that you will communicate
at work, no doubt. I’m gonna do one more, ’cause I want to link to this whole list, and we’ll give it to everybody, but the last person on
this list, a little gem, is Behind The Cloud,
who Carlye Adler wrote with Mark Benioff, and I don’t know if you’ve seen the hit list, you have seen the hit
list, that she’s written. She wrote Behind The Cloud,
Meditation For Fidgety Skeptics, which is Dan Harris’s book, Startupland, which is the Zendesk story, and, can you guess the last one? – [DC] Okay, I know them all, hold on. – You do? We got Behind The Cloud,
we got Startupland. – Did she co-write Hard Thing? – She wrote Hard Thing About Hard Things with Ben Horowitz. – That’s a pretty great lineup, huh? – That’s pretty good. – She’s badass. She’s in New York. If you’re listening to this podcast, shout it out, let’s hang out. – We’ll link to all this. We have the 60 great
business and leadership books all written by women. – Did you read any of those books? Which of those books have you read? I’m asking Maggie. – Oh, you’re asking
Maggie, I was gonna say. You don’t want to know. – Radical Candor for sure. – She wrote down, “Must read this book.” – Yeah, I haven’t read Behind The Cloud. – Oh my, what? – I know. – That’s gotta be the Drift onboarding. – G. – Behind The Cloud. Did you read Behind The Cloud? Okay. – G, please. – I’m reading The Fifth
Discipline right now. – You are? – Mm-hm. – That’s a deep cut. You already found– That is 90% of the secret. If DC posts a picture of a book, you buy it.
– How did you find that book? – You posted it, your Instagram. – It’s on top business books of all time. – Is that how you found it though? How did you find it? – Probably Googling
what books I should read to be better at my job. – [DC] What? – There’s literally a post that I saw, a picture of you with the book. – I think it was when I started thinking about product strategy, and then I needed to think
about systems thinking, and I ordered it several months ago. – I ordered a stack this
big that’s on my desk, we’ll post a shot, of all strategy books. First one that I picked off off the top was Fifth Discipline. The author is a professor at MIT, he doesn’t teach that much right now, but in the business school, and get this, I’m gonna show you something
here just for the people. Get ready, people. Get ready. Are you ready? Who’s ready? All right, I post that
in my Instragram stories. I don’t know if Maggie follows me though. – I do. You don’t follow me though. – (hisses) Oh my. – Oh. – Savageness. You know why, because, in my defense, Maggie’s one of those private people, so I never request anyone who’s private. – True. – It’d be like, “DC’s
creeping on me, he’s creeping. “He asked for access to my feed,” so I have a rule. – No opt-in. – The way it works at Drift, just so everyone knows,
in case you’re wondering, if you have a private feed, Elias will request 100% of the time. – It makes him want it more. – More. DC will never, ever request
if you’re a private feed 100%. Maggie’s private, so
I will not touch that. I’m like this. I’m like, “I will not,
no, do not request.” Don’t want this old dude creeping on you. All right, I’m gonna find you
something here for the people, ’cause I like these people. I posted that on my Instagram feed. I get a note in my message. I got a lot of DMs
here, I’m sorry, people. I get a DM from my boy over here. See, I posted this. – Oh, look at that. – That’s when I was at Deer Valley. – We can talk about that. – I want to talk about that. That was legit. I post that, and then I get a– I’m lost here. I get a note here, and it says, “Nice choice, my dad wrote that book.” (Maggie laughs) – [DG] Let me give you one more thread. I get a message– – This is one of my
homies who follows me on– – I get a message from Ian. He goes– – You know Ian? This is Ian.
– My Crossfit coach. – What?
– Smallest world on the planet. – This dude, my homie? – Ian messaged me, he goes, he messaged me, and we’ll have to post it. He goes, “Oh my god,” he
messaged me on Instagram, “Oh my god, DC’s reading my dad’s book. “I’m not sure what to do. “I think I might have
to slide into his DMs.” – He did, he slid in the DMs. For Ian, I have a public profile. I don’t want to friend request Maggie ’cause she’s gonna think I’m
gonna slide into the DMs, so nope, negative. – There you go, Ian. You made it on Seeking Wisdom. – My boy Ian right here,
look at him, Crossfit coach, his dad wrote the book. Ian, if you’re listening, tell your dad to get on the show. We need him on the show. Bring in Papa Senge, and
we’ll have him on the show. – Send us out of here. – Send us out of here. Maggie’s gonna send us out of here. She’s legit. – All right, we need
six stars for this team. Tell DC to continue to not
follow me on Instagram. Let’s get some more books by ladies. Shout out who your favorite– What I want to see is, in the reviews, I want to see books written by women about business who are also not white. – Yes, please, post those. – By the way, I’ve been
trying to read your notes. This says plus more, but I
thought it said plug more, like you wrote yourself
going into today’s show, like, “I’m gonna plug this more.” – Ganzalo, can you zoom in on this screen here? For my defense here, this says, “Maggie Crowley’s account is private,” and who follows her? Elias Torres. – Yeah. – Of course. – He also calls me on Saturdays just ’cause he knows it
makes me uncomfortable. (DC and DG laugh) – Look, this is private. Look, see, this, I would never touch this Request Follow Back button. – All right, I love it. – See ya, six stars always. – See ya. – See ya.

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